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Thread: Here It Comes...Again

  1. #61
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    And then of course is Richard Dolan's exhaustive historical research covering decades embodied in "UFO's and the National Security State". He is a classically trained historian with multiple degrees...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    Tangible.... Dr Leir's removal of ....something ...

    https://u.osu.edu/vanzandt/2018/03/0...anotechnology/
    Something, like a splinter, metal fragment, piece of glass, or subcutaneous fat. At least, that was the conclusion of a Dr. Glenn Pfeffer after reviewing some “implants.” And isn’t it a little suspicious that this particular doctor kept running into patients with alien implants that no other doctor seems to find?

    Incidentally he was disciplined for repeated negligence involving one of his patients. Not really impressive. Document below:

    https://www2.mbc.ca.gov/pdl/document...er=1171#page=1

    Seriously, do you ever think skeptically about these claims before trotting them out? Do you do any research at all? I look at a claim like this, and the first thing I notice is that these are all a single person’s claims. There is no independent confirmation for his claims. Tell me there is a reputable team of researchers from, say, a respected university that approach the claim with real skepticism (not the sham skepticism of someone who clearly Wants To Believe) and they conclude there isn’t a mundane explanation and I will get very interested. But there is none of that here. And second of course, as mentioned above, his claimed and repeated success at finding things others don’t find immediately made me extremely suspicious.
    Last edited by Van Rijn; 2021-Apr-07 at 04:08 AM.

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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    And then of course is Richard Dolan's exhaustive historical research covering decades embodied in "UFO's and the National Security State". He is a classically trained historian with multiple degrees...
    He has an MA in history, but just because a person has an MA in history doesn't mean that you can accept their research as accurate. After all, there are historians with pristine academic backgrounds, PhDs and the like, who disagree widely on what happened in places like Nanjing or other sites of massacres. It seems that Dolan is a person who mainly writes books and does radio and TV shows, and presumably makes some money from selling that point of view. He's not publishing his stuff in peer-reviewed journals as far as I can see.
    As above, so below

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    And then of course is Richard Dolan's exhaustive historical research covering decades embodied in "UFO's and the National Security State". He is a classically trained historian with multiple degrees...
    And . . .? Some fellow wrote a book. I’m looking for evidence, not stories.

    Incidentally you didn’t say anything about the idea of a program to look for approaching or leaving ET spacecraft. It would be a possible method to gather real evidence if there is any to be gathered. Don’t you find this an intriguing idea? After all, track an unknown’s descent and potentially they could be examined close up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post

    Incidentally you didn’t say anything about the idea of a program to look for approaching or leaving ET spacecraft. It would be a possible method to gather real evidence if there is any to be gathered. Don’t you find this an intriguing idea? After all, track an unknown’s descent and potentially they could be examined close up.
    It's quite an interesting idea for a sort of citizen science project. I wonder what it would involve. Cameras on rooftops taking constant streams, and then having people scan them? It would also be cool to have a kind of radar or lidar system that could give an idea as to whether things that appear in the videos are actual objects rather than visual phenomena and how far away they are.
    As above, so below

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    It's quite an interesting idea for a sort of citizen science project. I wonder what it would involve. Cameras on rooftops taking constant streams, and then having people scan them? It would also be cool to have a kind of radar or lidar system that could give an idea as to whether things that appear in the videos are actual objects rather than visual phenomena and how far away they are.
    Probably better in areas with dark sky, with low power telescopes for at least some of them, and some looking at the same area of the sky. Two well separated telescopes looking at the same patch of sky can determine altitude (up to a point) through triangulation. I’d also expect software to do a first pass, using rules and known orbits to separate objects of interest from the mundane. Then people could review the interesting video recordings.

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    I would quite like to believe in aliens but the trouble for me is they would have to come from a planet of another star. Because to come from our system would make them very alien. The most plausible way to do that is the Andromeda story, where radio signals enable a machine to be built here. Who could have the equipment to receive such a signal? Would that who want to publish? Then any smart alien having done that would enlist fringe people to talk about aliens so that the rest of us would laugh at them. Then, assuming a long term plan, they would get us to modify the planet nearer to their desires, and against our interests. Of course that all seems unlikely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    He has an MA in history, but just because a person has an MA in history doesn't mean that you can accept their research as accurate. After all, there are historians with pristine academic backgrounds, PhDs and the like, who disagree widely on what happened in places like Nanjing or other sites of massacres. It seems that Dolan is a person who mainly writes books and does radio and TV shows, and presumably makes some money from selling that point of view. He's not publishing his stuff in peer-reviewed journals as far as I can see.
    You probably have not read his book. He uses a variety of sources including many Government documents.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    Something, like a splinter, metal fragment, piece of glass, or subcutaneous fat. At least, that was the conclusion of a Dr. Glenn Pfeffer after reviewing some “implants.” And isn’t it a little suspicious that this particular doctor kept running into patients with alien implants that no other doctor seems to find?

    Incidentally he was disciplined for repeated negligence involving one of his patients. Not really impressive. Document below:

    https://www2.mbc.ca.gov/pdl/document...er=1171#page=1

    Seriously, do you ever think skeptically about these claims before trotting them out? Do you do any research at all? I look at a claim like this, and the first thing I notice is that these are all a single person’s claims. There is no independent confirmation for his claims. Tell me there is a reputable team of researchers from, say, a respected university that approach the claim with real skepticism (not the sham skepticism of someone who clearly Wants To Believe) and they conclude there isn’t a mundane explanation and I will get very interested. But there is none of that here. And second of course, as mentioned above, his claimed and repeated success at finding things others don’t find immediately made me extremely suspicious.
    I chose a very poor link for sure that I had not read all the way thru. Here is a better one in my estimation, biased of course since written by him but may have other links... https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...MOKING+GUN.pdf
    I was pretty skeptical of his finds for quite awhile but eventually started thinking there might be something to it.
    Last edited by Grant Hatch; 2021-Apr-07 at 06:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    You probably have not read his book. He uses a variety of sources including many Government documents.
    Did you have a particular book in mind? I've read three--two he coauthored with two different UFOlogists, and one for which he's the sole author--and I'm aware of several more.

    Edit: Other way around--two solo and one coauthored.

    Grant Hutchison
    Last edited by grant hutchison; 2021-Apr-07 at 07:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    I chose a very poor link for sure that I had not read all the way thru. Here is a better one in my estimation, biased of course since written by him but may have other links... https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...MOKING+GUN.pdf
    I was pretty skeptical of his finds for quite awhile but eventually started thinking there might be something to it.
    No references, no discussion of the evidence for his claims, claims made that don't appear to match the techniques mentioned, no independent tests or verification...

    Typical bad UFO article put out to sell more books. It entirely relies on people saying "But he is a podiatrist so me must have an extensive knowledge of science and analytical methods".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    And . . .? Some fellow wrote a book. I’m looking for evidence, not stories.
    Don't recall who said: "The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'".

    Grant Hatch, if someone who's NOT a longtime UFO enthusiast finds interesting, repeatable evidence of It's Aliens that holds up to properly vetted scrutiny*, that's when I'll sit up and take notice. Individuals with motive --money, fame, personal vindication, etc-- tend to engage in Motivated Reasoning. A noted writer of UFO books has such motives.

    * I mean close examination by multiple scientists in relevant fields. For example, a tissue sample could go to biological labs. An unnaturally moving object, as described above, that can be seen by any telescope with a clear view of that patch of sky. Something that holds up for anyone who looks at it.
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    Grant, what would it take to convince you that you're wrong?
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    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    Grant, what would it take to convince you that you're wrong?
    I'm guessing that's not addressed to me.

    Grant Hutchison

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    Sorry--no, assuredly not. I know what would convince you that you're wrong!
    _____________________________________________
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    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    You probably have not read his book. He uses a variety of sources including many Government documents.
    I haven't. But yes, if the government has released documents stating that they have communicating with extraterrestrial beings, I'd be quite interested. But I haven't heard of those documents yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I haven't. But yes, if the government has released documents stating that they have communicating with extraterrestrial beings, I'd be quite interested. But I haven't heard of those documents yet.
    Looking back through the thread I see, Grant Hatch is probably referring to one or both of Dolan's volumes entitled UFOs and the National Security State, which I have read.
    Here's what I wrote in my little notebook:
    Uncritical rehash of the usual stuff.
    Curious use of phrase "primary source", since much is lifted from other UFOlogy texts.
    Chains of assumption and speculation dressed up as logical argument.
    Mass media allegedly part of conspiracy to supress evidence--except when quoted as sources that suit author's thesis.
    Grant Hutchison

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    Grant, what would it take to convince you that you're wrong?
    That awkward moment when both people arguing with each other have the same name.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    Sorry--no, assuredly not. I know what would convince you that you're wrong!
    In this context, I'm not sure I do. But to paraphrase Justice Potter Stewart, I'll know it when I see it.

    ETA: On reflection, I guess there are two separate problems:
    1) "Am I wrong in my belief that there are no extraterrestrial intelligences piloting physical vehicles in and around the Earth's atmosphere?"
    2) "Am I wrong in my belief that the current evidence fails to demonstrate that there extraterrestrial intelligences piloting physical vehicles in and around the Earth's atmosphere?"
    I'm more likely to be convinced of 1) than I am of 2).

    In medicine, it was a common enough situation that clinicians would feel the evidence to support a particular technique or treatment was initially unconvincing, but would then adopt the technique after more compelling evidence (a well-designed multicentre trial, for instance) became available. But it was also common that the compelling evidence turned out to support the clinicians' initial resistance.

    So it's possible to be perfectly justified in doubting poor quality data, but as a result to end up on the wrong side of subsequent, better evidence. That doesn't mean the initial doubts were unjustified.

    Grant Hutchison
    Last edited by grant hutchison; 2021-Apr-09 at 10:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Did you have a particular book in mind? I've read three--two he coauthored with two different UFOlogists, and one for which he's the sole author--and I'm aware of several more.

    Edit: Other way around--two solo and one coauthored.

    Grant Hutchison
    I believe I mentioned it earlier, "UFO'S and the National Security State"
    Dolan didn't start out as a UFO believer and wasn't even interested in the subject initially ... He was researching a subject having nothing to do with UFO's, (so he thought) and was sucked into it by the documents he read.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaula View Post
    No references, no discussion of the evidence for his claims, claims made that don't appear to match the techniques mentioned, no independent tests or verification...

    Typical bad UFO article put out to sell more books. It entirely relies on people saying "But he is a podiatrist so me must have an extensive knowledge of science and analytical methods".
    It's obvious that YOU did not research his history or the trail he followed to get where he ended up. I've been following his efforts for years. There is a much greater body of research, and data he documented which you have obviously not seen and implicitly ignore in your conclusions regarding his work. Just because I link ONE or two articles regarding his work does not mean that is all there is to it. He spent YEARS researching something he didn't believe himself at first but was eventually convinced (by UFOlogists) deserved an honest look. Sure, some of the things he pulled out of people were normal and didn't seem particularly unusual.... but some of his findings after having the "implants" analyzed by independent labs are truly interesting.... Isotopic ratios not found normally on earth, unusual combinations of metals not normally found together naturally, radio emissions from them......I suspect you will say that he has been removing micrometeorites that have somehow lodged themselves in these people.. A fair statement perhaps......but still....
    Last edited by Grant Hatch; 2021-Apr-10 at 05:21 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Looking back through the thread I see, Grant Hatch is probably referring to one or both of Dolan's volumes entitled UFOs and the National Security State, which I have read.
    Here's what I wrote in my little notebook:
    Grant Hutchison
    That doesn't seem quite fair. You dismiss his primary sources (gov docs) out of hand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Don't recall who said: "The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'".

    Grant Hatch, if someone who's NOT a longtime UFO enthusiast finds interesting, repeatable evidence of It's Aliens that holds up to properly vetted scrutiny*, that's when I'll sit up and take notice. Individuals with motive --money, fame, personal vindication, etc-- tend to engage in Motivated Reasoning. A noted writer of UFO books has such motives.

    * I mean close examination by multiple scientists in relevant fields. For example, a tissue sample could go to biological labs. An unnaturally moving object, as described above, that can be seen by any telescope with a clear view of that patch of sky. Something that holds up for anyone who looks at it.
    Oh now..... Lots of all the above going on. Well... except the tissue sample. Somebody has one but not you or I!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    It's obvious that YOU did not research his history or the trail he followed to get where he ended up.
    I thought my comment made it very clear that I was reviewing his article, not him or his larger body of work. You provided what you said was a better link and I am pointing out why it is not a compelling article.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    I've been following his efforts for years. There is a much greater body of research, and data he documented which you have obviously not seen and implicitly ignore in your apparently contemptuous conclusions regarding his work. Just because I link ONE or two articles regarding his work does not mean that is all there is to it.
    Then it would have been really useful if he had published it and referenced it, yes? Instead we get a bunch of assertions and claims followed by an advert for his book. Hence my comments about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    but some of his findings after having the "implants" analyzed by independent labs are truly interesting.... Isotopic ratios not found normally on earth, unusual combinations of metals not normally found together naturally, radio emissions from them......I suspect you will say that he has been removing micrometeorites that have somehow lodged themselves in these people.. A fair statement perhaps......but still....
    And yet these independent labs didn't apparently publish either. There was no reference to any published and reviewed record of the experiemntal set up, of peer review of his analysis, of open presentation of data. There is no reason at all that the laboratory work couldn't have been published in reputable journals (you just leave out the "So it has to be aliens" conclusion and voila - you have a solid technical paper you can publish, have reviewed and reference).

    You seem to be completely missing the point I am making. I cannot tell what these things are or how seriously I should take his assessment. I'm saying that the article you presented is basically just an advert for his book rather than anything substantive.

    But, you know, if you enjoy a binary world where there are only Good People Who Accept UFOs Are Aliens and Evil Monsters With Fangs That Drip Pure Cynicism then knock yourself out. I did question whether it was worth chipping in on this topic as I've seen your reflexive attacks before and I don't think it is a helpful approach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    Dolan didn't start out as a UFO believer and wasn't even interested in the subject initially ... He was researching a subject having nothing to do with UFO's, (so he thought) and was sucked into it by the documents he read.
    A few thoughts arise: You seem to accept his claim that he didn’t go in to this work as a “UFO believer” uncritically. But that isn’t a claim I would accept if the author brings in multiple references to other UFO claims and presents an agenda not supported by evidence in the actual documents, as seems to be the case here.

    Also, there is your use of the phrase “UFO believer.” Why wouldn’t a person believe in UFOs? As I’ve said before, I’ve seen a number of apparently flying objects that I couldn’t identify. Of course that doesn’t mean they must be something extraordinary.

    From what I read, he actually is a believer in ET spacecraft visitation. That is a very different thing from “UFO believer.” The point is that in UFOlogy I often see people uncritically accept claims and often see people jump from “UFO” to assuming “alien spacecraft.” You are showing this attitude right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Looking back through the thread I see, Grant Hatch is probably referring to one or both of Dolan's volumes entitled UFOs and the National Security State, which I have read.
    Here's what I wrote in my little notebook:
    Uncritical rehash of the usual stuff.
    Curious use of phrase "primary source", since much is lifted from other UFOlogy texts.
    Chains of assumption and speculation dressed up as logical argument.
    Mass media allegedly part of conspiracy to supress evidence--except when quoted as sources that suit author's thesis.
    There was a review on Amazon that made some of the same points, in between the glowing reviews and ones that just didn’t like how it was presented (I believe one said it was too dull). Here is that review:

    Whilst this is undoubtedly an interesting and enjoyable read it appears to be a rehash of the tales from other authors, Timothy Good et al. This means that a good proportion (but not all) of the references given are to these other works rather than any original official documents. These earlier works do not always reference official documents either so we end up with a volume that helps perpetuate the myths. Alongside this there seems to be a the usual conspiracy theory agenda being inferred which gives the impression that the presented information is being skewed to push the author's beliefs. Pretty much all of the material in here has been published in the past, so there is little that is original but it is useful to have this in a single volume. It feels to me though that where facts may not meet the author's theories they have been left out. This is an impression though and I accept that I may be being unfair. That said, the book is comprehensive, well written and engaging and well worth buying if you are interested in the subject and is definitely worth the price.


    So that reviewer thought it was worth the price, but it hardly sounds impressive according to their review to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    It's obvious that YOU did not research his history or the trail he followed to get where he ended up. I've been following his efforts for years.
    After seeing your various posts here, I’m afraid that doesn’t mean much to me, and I suspect to most other posters here. You seem entirely too credulous of claims that fit your beliefs, and you don’t seem to consider if someone isn’t being truthful or is just not being objective. I don’t ever get the impression that you try to test or evaluate extraordinary claims. This is why independent research and evaluation is so important. I spent a relatively small amount of time looking for skeptical evaluations of this person and found comments about mundane objects he claimed were extraordinary, and objects he claimed moved on their own but where it could be seen that he was manipulating them. It does not exactly make me trust his claims. He was the subject of an old Penn and Teller show where they covered some of this.

    There is a much greater body of research, and data he documented which you have obviously not seen and implicitly ignore in your conclusions regarding his work.
    Well, let’s see it. Where is the documentation of this research and data?

    Sure, some of the things he pulled out of people were normal and didn't seem particularly unusual.... but some of his findings after having the "implants" analyzed by independent labs are truly interesting.... Isotopic ratios not found normally on earth, unusual combinations of metals not normally found together naturally, radio emissions from them......I suspect you will say that he has been removing micrometeorites that have somehow lodged themselves in these people.. A fair statement perhaps......but still....
    Where are the independent lab reports, not filtered through his interpretation? Second, why would one suggest he was removing meteorites? Did a lab report indicate objects supplied to them appeared to be meteorites? Nothing you’ve said yet suggested that, but let’s follow that idea: Let’s assume a lab did report an object they received appeared to be a meteorite or meteorite fragment. How should we evaluate that?

    First off, it doesn’t indicate aliens. Meteorites are mundane objects, rare but readily available. You can buy them on the internet. If someone wanted, they could put a small piece under their skin.

    And for that matter, I doubt there is a clear chain of custody and close observation for all the things he claimed he removed: Just because a meteorite was sent to a lab does not necessarily mean it was removed from someone’s body.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    That doesn't seem quite fair. You dismiss his primary sources (gov docs) out of hand.
    No, I didn't "dismiss them out of hand". I didn't even mention them in my little summary. I just pointed out that most of his work is a rather uncritical compilation of secondary and tertiary sources.

    Grant Hutchison

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    In the set of untestable beliefs, we have to include pseudo evidence which is confusing if one is looking for evidence. It turns out the interpretation of evidence leaves people split between believers and non believers. It seems to me that belief in aliens is very like belief in the supernatural or various gods. Not even limited consensus nails the argument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    So that reviewer thought it was worth the price, but it hardly sounds impressive according to their review to me.
    I found it interesting, to the extent it's still on my shelves somewhere--a useful chronological narration of who was saying what to whom.
    But it's an absolutely classic example of conspiracy ideation. He simply assumes that UFO sightings can only be explained by aliens in spaceships--as early in the story as the 1950s, UFOs are making "incursions" that the American military are "powerless to prevent", for instance.
    All the documentation he cites is viewed through this prism: if a document takes the Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis seriously, it's confirmatory evidence for the ETH; if it is dismissive, then the author was out of the loop or a stooge; if it appears to be faked, it's deep disinformation. The media are colluding with a cover-up ... unless they report something that fits his viewpoint, in which case they're cited as evidence. If Truman expressed an interest in receiving UFO briefings, but was officially briefed only a few times a year, then obviously there must have been other, secret briefings. One example I found particularly offensive was the suggestion that a man who clearly had a horrible depressive illness had been "driven mad" by knowing the truth about UFOs.

    Grant Hutchison

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