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Thread: Here It Comes...Again

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    I'm sorry, I can't seem to figure out what it makes you wonder.

    Grant Hutchison
    What kind of secret experimental aircraft the gubmint is playing with?

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superluminal View Post
    What kind of secret experimental aircraft the gubmint is playing with?
    But this thread is about some allegedly "compelling" UFO report from the United States government.
    Are we seriously wondering if the US government will reveal details of its own secret experimental aircraft in this report?

    Grant Hutchison

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    But this thread is about some allegedly "compelling" UFO report from the United States government.
    Are we seriously wondering if the US government will reveal details of its own secret experimental aircraft in this report?
    I think the argument, which I find underwhelming, is probably not that they plan to release details of that, but rather that the fact that they are spending so much money is evidence that they know of some advanced technology and are spending lots of secret money to try to replicate it.


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  4. #34
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    A compelling argument would also show that 99% of sightings are simply mundane.

    But probably not what many folks are expecting.

  5. #35
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    Does anybody else hear this song in their head every time this thread comes up in "New Posts"?
    The greatest journey of all time, for all to see
    Every mission makes our dreams reality
    And our destiny begins with you and me
    Through all space and time, the achievement of mankind
    As we sail the sea of discovery, on heroesí wings we fly!

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaiYeves View Post
    Does anybody else hear this song in their head every time this thread comes up in "New Posts"?
    Cool. I like that song, but it wasn't the song that came to me. The song that I keep hearing in my head when I this thread is this one. It comes up at about the 1:12 mark. Just ten years after this came out, the guy playing drums would become one of the top pop stars of the eighties.
    As above, so below

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaiYeves View Post
    Does anybody else hear this song in their head every time this thread comes up in "New Posts"?
    Not me, never heard that before.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  8. #38
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    Don't think I've heard either of the songs so far offered. Here's what comes into my head: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wds903B96V8

    Grant Hutchison

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    But this thread is about some allegedly "compelling" UFO report from the United States government.
    Are we seriously wondering if the US government will reveal details of its own secret experimental aircraft in this report?

    Grant Hutchison
    Well, if the left hand does not know....in a large organisation, secret and expensive projects would have to be “need to know” and , I guess, covered by plausible stories. The project managers would maintain silence when their well meaning colleagues compile reports from operations. Then, would there be any benefit in cynically encouraging alien stories to explain accidental sightings? It is a ploy I would consider, should I be developing ever so secret devices.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    Then, would there be any benefit in cynically encouraging alien stories to explain accidental sightings? It is a ploy I would consider, should I be developing ever so secret devices.
    Yeah. See Mark Pilkington's Mirage Men for an extended riff on that idea.

    Grant Hutchison

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Yeah. See Mark Pilkington's Mirage Men for an extended riff on that idea.

    Grant Hutchison
    Ooh thanks, I have not heard of that one. Sounds good.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    Ooh thanks, I have not heard of that one. Sounds good.
    It's fascinating--almost hypnotic--if you're interested in that sort of thing.

    Grant Hutchison

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    As I said, I was on a white water rafting trip and observing from the valley floor. Over the surrounding hills/"my horizon" is I suppose, not the same as over a far horizon that you would have if in flat country. In any case it was good enough for me. There are many far better reports and witnesses out there. Any honest and diligent effort to research the subject would be convincing enough to most reasonable persons in my opinion. The problem is separating the wheat from the chaff..... The gov had been engaged in a disinformation campaign for some time, makes me wonder why the change...... Perhaps the old guard is mostly gone now and the "new" guard is changing it's policies.
    Last edited by Grant Hatch; 2021-Apr-05 at 05:15 PM.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    As I said, I was on a white water rafting trip and observing from the valley floor. Over the surrounding hills/"my horizon" is I suppose, not the same as over a far horizon that you would have if in flat country. In any case it was good enough for me. There are many far better reports and witnesses out there. Any honest and diligent effort to research the subject would be convincing enough to most reasonable persons in my opinion.
    I am an extremely reasonable person. That's why reason dictates I want actual physical evidence, and not fallible human observations.

    The problem is separating the wheat from the chaff.....
    Yes it is, especially when there is a likelihood that it is all chaff.
    The gov had been engaged in a disinformation campaign for some time, makes me wonder why the change...... Perhaps the old guard is mostly gone now and the "new" guard is changing it's policies.
    Please show evidence of both a disinformation campaign and a change in policy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    As I said, I was on a white water rafting trip and observing from the valley floor. Over the surrounding hills/"my horizon" is I suppose, not the same as over a far horizon that you would have if in flat country.
    If you were at the bottom of a hole, then perhaps. But that's not a circumstance under which one would normally refer to a "horizon". Our peripheral vision is actually much poorer than we perceive it to be, and we compensate by flicking our eyes around to allow our brains to build up an impression that we can see a lot of our surroundings simultaneously, even though we can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    In any case it was good enough for me.
    That's really a recurring problem with this sort of report.
    The observer sees something, assigns an interpretation to it, and then explores no further.
    I could easily have assumed that I really had seen four luminous yellow balls bouncing in a non-physical way up a Scottish hillside ahead of me. It was a very striking impression, which generated a strong emotional response--just the sort of thing that goes into long-term memory and is refined and enhanced by repeated rumination, until it becomes a polished narrative fraught with associations and implications.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    There are many far better reports and witnesses out there. Any honest and diligent effort to research the subject would be convincing enough to most reasonable persons in my opinion.
    Oddly, I've come away from my own honest and diligent efforts with exactly the opposite opinion--that no reasonable person could be convinced by the evidence.

    Grant Hutchison
    Last edited by grant hutchison; 2021-Apr-05 at 06:28 PM.

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    Any honest and diligent effort to research the subject would be convincing enough to most reasonable persons in my opinion.
    Convincing me that you'd gotten the impression that you got? Sure, I believe that you did perceive it that way. Causes of what you saw are a whole 'nother category. That's where the argument goes off the rails.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  17. #47
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    Going back up the thread a bit...
    I can see the confusion created by the use or misuse of "ufo". It is probably better to define alleged sightings as did Dr Hynek by categorizing encounters*in elevated*levels (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th). Everything discussed in this thread is referring to encounters of the 1st kind. Here's how they breakdown (from wiki):

    Close Encounters of the First Kind : Visual sightings of an unidentified flying object, seemingly less than 500 feet (150*m) away, that show an appreciable angular extension and considerable detail.

    Close Encounters of the Second Kind : A UFO event in which a physical effect is alleged; this can be interference in the functioning of a vehicle or electronic device, animals reacting, a physiological effect such as paralysis or heat and discomfort in the witness, or some physical trace like impressions in the ground, scorched or otherwise affected vegetation, or a chemical trace.

    Close Encounters of the Third Kind : UFO encounters in which an animated entity is present—these include humanoids, robots, and humans who seem to be occupants or pilots of a UFO.

    Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind : A Close Encounter of the Fourth Kind is a UFO event in which a human is*abducted*by a UFO or its occupants.*This type was not included in Hynek's original close encounters scale.

    Encounters of the 1st Kind which have been discussed in this thread are easily debunked (I wouldn't call it naysaying either). Lights in the night sky, or silvery discs in daylight*do not, nor should they be automatically assigned to "ETs". But what of the 3rd and 4th kinds of encounters which*involve witnesses seeing or interacting with alleged*ETs? The easiest choice for "debunkers" to explain all of these alleged 3rd & 4th encounters falls into only 2 categories, the witness(es) are either lying or they are delusional (both have sub categories). To accept these reports at face value would be to accept*ET visitation, but that is unacceptable without undeniable 100% proof. As I have said in some of these related threads nothing short of a pound of alien flesh will satisfy the proof end, and that would be quite difficult and most likely impossible to obtain.*

    Other than an alien pound of flesh, the ETs purposely exposing themselves to us, or the government(s) makes a profound and irrefutable disclosure of their existence would be the other exceptions as a form of proof.

    As for the upcoming report, I doubt seriously the government will say anything more revealing than the Bluebook/Condon Report did back in 69'. That basically yes, there are some unidentified objects/sightings going on in our atmosphere, but that these isolated*incidents pose no threat to national security, now move along....meanwhile, back at the ranch....
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  18. #48
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    "Lying" or "delusional" is a false dichotomy, and a classic one deployed by ETH believers. [Outraged voice] "So you're saying that ALL these people are either LYING or DELUSIONAL?!?!" (punctuation and capitalization sic, throughout).

    No, I'm not. I'm saying there's a whole complicated and fascinating psychosocial phenomenon surrounding these episodes, which have been with us for a lot longer than the Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis, and which we've recently managed to augment with false memory syndrome and increasingly wide access to a particular ever-evolving (and profitable) mythos.

    Grant Hutchison

  19. #49
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    I was going to say much the same thing. I’ve had false memories* and sleep paralysis (also suggested as being involved in some abduction claims, and it strikes me as a reasonable argument). I don’t need to think someone is “delusional” or lying to question ET visitation claims where there is no solid corroborating evidence. In such cases I don’t discount the possibility that someone actually did have a close encounter, but if there is no way to show a visitation is more likely than mundane alternatives, it remains an unsupported claim.

    I’ve carefully made that point before, and still had the outraged response. I’ve wondered if they really missed the point or understood very well, but had just seen an opportunity for a disingenuous “gotcha.”

    There is a similar issue with psychic claims. One of the reasons I don’t consider Harold E. Puthoff (currently a member of the “To the stars institute”) a serious and objective researcher, is that when holes in his experimental methodology were shown that could allow cheating, instead of thanking the critics for pointing out the holes and running a corrected experiment, he sent back comments that said, paraphrasing, “How dare you accuse our wonderful participants of cheating!” That misses the point entirely - the issue is about the experiment, which had been shown to be deeply flawed, therefore its results were useless.

    *A mundane example of a false memory: There is a certain movie I remembered watching at a certain place and time for reasons I won’t get into. Once, it came up again on TV and I thought about the first time I watched it, and decided to look up details about it at a movie site. When I read about it I was absolutely floored to read it had come out about six years after I remembered seeing it. It was really very shocking, since I was so certain about where and when I had seen it. Eventually, I came to the conclusion there were things in the movie that had reminded me of the location I had been at, so I had made an incorrect association when I had later actually seen it and that became my memory. I was quite certain of the place and time and that I had watched a movie. After realizing this wasn’t it, I seemed to remember I watched a different movie that did turn out to be new at the right time. But is that a valid memory? I have no way to verify it, so I can’t say.

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  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    "Lying" or "delusional" is a false dichotomy, and a classic one deployed by ETH believers. [Outraged voice] "So you're saying that ALL these people are either LYING or DELUSIONAL?!?!" (punctuation and capitalization sic, throughout).
    Right, there is the option of simply having a human brain with the usual perceptual and memory shortcuts. See Optical Illusion, Autokinetic Effect, Filling-In, Unconscious Inference, Pareidolia, et many ceteras. We are all heir to them, because that's how we're wired. That's why camouflage and stage magic work; the eye and the brain are fallible witnesses and easily misled or mistaken.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    But what of the 3rd and 4th kinds of encounters which*involve witnesses seeing or interacting with alleged ETs?
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    Other than an alien pound of flesh, the ETs purposely exposing themselves to us, or the government(s) makes a profound and irrefutable disclosure of their existence would be the other exceptions as a form of proof.
    It's funny, because in the first quote you seem to be implying that the ETs are purposely exposing themselves to us ("interacting"), while in the second you are saying that the ETs purposely exposing themselves to us would be sufficient to be proof.

    To me it's not that simple. I believe in platypuses, even if they have not intentionally exposed themselves to us, and even though they are strange, because it seems reasonable that they exist and there are many people who have seen them. With extraterrestrials it's not clear like that. I don't feel that I could go and find one if I wanted. With a platypus I feel like I could actually go out and find one if I wanted.
    As above, so below

  22. #52
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    Oops, thanks for pointing out my mistake, "delusional" indicates a mental illness of some kind and although that may be likely in certain cases I should have used 'illusional" which isn't a real term but perhaps better describes what I meant. Not mental illness being involved in the 3rd/4th type encounters but just a mis-interpretation of their own experiences (an illusion).

    --------------------------------------------------

    "It's funny, because in the first quote you seem to be implying that the ETs are purposely exposing themselves to us ("interacting"), while in the second you are saying that the ETs purposely exposing themselves to us would be sufficient to be proof."


    Jens, I was speaking of the difference of isolated eyewitness incidents as being less convincing proof then would be a deliberate mass exposure of themselves to the people of the world (as in a craft landing on the White House lawn, etc.).

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    Oops, thanks for pointing out my mistake, "delusional" indicates a mental illness of some kind and although that may be likely in certain cases I should have used 'illusional" which isn't a real term but perhaps better describes what I meant. Not mental illness being involved in the 3rd/4th type encounters but just a mis-interpretation of their own experiences (an illusion).
    Right, so in the case of a 3rd/4th type, it could be someone lying, but could also be something misinterpreting what they saw. For example, they had a dream but didn't realize that it was a dream and not real. I guess that could happen.
    As above, so below

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    Jens, I was speaking of the difference of isolated eyewitness incidents as being less convincing proof then would be a deliberate mass exposure of themselves to the people of the world (as in a craft landing on the White House lawn, etc.).
    Sure, that makes sense. I definitely think that exposing themselves deliberately in front of the UN building would be much more convincing than exposing themselves in front of a single person. Presumably, if they exist and want to make us realize that they exist, they will make an appearance in front of the UN building in New York, or wherever.
    As above, so below

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    Jens, I was speaking of the difference of isolated eyewitness incidents as being less convincing proof then would be a deliberate mass exposure of themselves to the people of the world (as in a craft landing on the White House lawn, etc.).
    It's actually an interesting question. Presumably, if they wanted us to know they were here, they would simply make a grand appearance. If they didn't want us to know they were here, they would simply not appear. So what is the point of making appearances to isolated individuals in situations that don't seem quite clear? To sow confusion among us? For what purpose?
    As above, so below

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    It's actually an interesting question. Presumably, if they wanted us to know they were here, they would simply make a grand appearance. If they didn't want us to know they were here, they would simply not appear. So what is the point of making appearances to isolated individuals in situations that don't seem quite clear? To sow confusion among us? For what purpose?
    This is the point at which ETH proponents invoke the same "Ah-ha but they're ALIENS!" argument used when anyone asks why the Space Brothers might choose to construct elaborate patterns in wheatfields. We Cannot Hope To Fathom Their Motives.

    Grant Hutchison

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    This is the point at which ETH proponents invoke the same "Ah-ha but they're ALIENS!" argument used when anyone asks why the Space Brothers might choose to construct elaborate patterns in wheatfields. We Cannot Hope To Fathom Their Motives.
    Yes, just like God I suppose. "God moves in mysterious ways, and we cannot hope to fathom her motives." She saved A, who couldn't board the plane that crashed because of a conflict, but what about B, who was scheduled for a different flight but ended up boarding the plane that crashed because a seat opened? We often tend to focus on how A was saved, disregarding the death of B.
    As above, so below

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    Other than an alien pound of flesh, the ETs purposely exposing themselves to us, or the government(s) makes a profound and irrefutable disclosure of their existence would be the other exceptions as a form of proof.
    How about just summing it up as needing to meet basic standards of evidence? Take Bigfoot claims, for example. Somebody claiming they saw a Bigfoot creature isnít going to do it, nor a video that could easily be faked with a person in a suit, or an ambiguous video. Youíre going to need something a bit more tangible and verifiable. If not the creature itself, at least some bones or fossils - something more than stories. In the case of the alien spacecraft claim, Iíve mentioned before some evidence I would take very seriously that doesnít involve actually having the hardware: Many of these claims are about quite large objects, supposedly brightly lit and seemingly not hiding at all. It isnít hard at all to see spacecraft near the earth, and there is a constant watch for them as well as asteroids. By now, we should have had evidence of these things approaching from deep space and leaving Earth if they were there at all. If they do things our chemical rockets canít do, we should have evidence of that too. That would be excellent evidence and could be verified by multiple observers, but we have nothing like that. But maybe they were missed so far. A program to look for unusual near earth objects with the intent to test the visitation hypothesis would be better approach than listening to unverifiable stories that wonít ever result in testable evidence. But I never hear of enthusiasts doing anything like that. When I mention the idea here, I never see enthusiasts show the least interest. I wonder why?

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  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post

    the ETs purposely exposing themselves to us
    ...ewwww.
    The greatest journey of all time, for all to see
    Every mission makes our dreams reality
    And our destiny begins with you and me
    Through all space and time, the achievement of mankind
    As we sail the sea of discovery, on heroesí wings we fly!

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    Tangible.... Dr Leir's removal of ....something ...

    https://u.osu.edu/vanzandt/2018/03/0...anotechnology/
    The timeless ends of formless starts....all ends in dark and begins in light...

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