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Thread: Does anyone still believe that Apollo 11 landed on the moon after Chang'E-4

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  1. #1
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    Does anyone still believe that Apollo 11 landed on the moon after Chang'E-4

    It seems the lunar surface is radioactive so could we have really landed on the moon and not have been aware of this fact?

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    Lord Foul

    First, welcome to CQ.

    Second, what exactly are you contending? If this radioactivity was newly discovered by Chang'E-4, then NASA didn't know about it in 1969, so why wouldn't they send astronauts to the Moon? If they knew about it, then this isn't news and it has nothing to do with Chang'E-4.

    Here is a publication that reports the Chang'E-4 findings.
    The Lunar Lander Neutrons and Dosimetry experiment aboard China’s Chang’E 4 lander has made the first ever measurements of the radiation exposure to both charged and neutral particles on the lunar surface. We measured an average total absorbed dose rate in silicon of 13.2 ± 1 μGy/hour and a neutral particle dose rate of 3.1 ± 0.5 μGy/hour.
    This paper talks about radiation exposures in a variety of situations. Table 1 summarizes a lot of this info. It reports astronauts, in particular Apollo 10, being exposed to ~18 μGy/h. So this doesn't seem to be particularly new information.

    For comparison, it reports Chernobyl clean-up workers were exposed to 320 μGy/h.

    This source says that "The whole-body exposure threshold for acute hematopoietic syndrome or "radiation sickness" is 500 mGy." That's 500,000 μGy. And even 20 μGy/hr, the astronauts would have to be on the moon for 25,000 hours. My understanding of the concerns raised by the Chang'E-4 data is for long term habitation, not for a visit of a day or several.

    Lastly, ignoring your radiation concerns, what about all the rest of the overwhelming data supporting the Apollo landings on the Moon? Whether NASA sent astronauts into a dangerous situation or not (and multiple dangers were well known), they overwhelmingly demonstrate that men really did land on the Moon.
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    Thank you for the welcome. Chang'E-4's validate the readings of the LRO. The surface of moon is radioactive and this was unknown by NASA until the LRO was launched in 2009. It would not have been possible to have gone to the moon and not be aware. The dosimetry worn by the astronauts would have detected the radiation. The dust filled space suits would have indicated the lunar surface was radioactive. Throughout the Apollo lunar missions, astronauts exposed themselves to lunar dust and ingested it. They noted that it smelled like gun powder. Theses things would not have happened if NASA had been aware the lunar surface was radioactive. The 8 day mission without passing through the Van Allen Belt would result in a .24 mgy/day exposure from the GCR of space. Any time spent on the moon would raise that value by 30 to 40% during orbital and surface operation. The fact that the actual exposure rate for the mission was .22 mgy/day means that Apollo 11 did not transit the Van Allen Belt and did orbit or land on the moon. That is if we are to believe the published exposure rates

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    It seems another post was approved since I last read this thread. Lord Foul, as a note, moderators have to approve early posts by new users as an anti-spam measure so we don’t always see them right away. That should end before too long as you write more posts.

    Anyway, this one raises a number of questions I’d like to see clarified.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Foul View Post
    Thank you for the welcome. Chang'E-4's validate the readings of the LRO. The surface of moon is radioactive and this was unknown by NASA until the LRO was launched in 2009.
    Please clarify what you mean by “The surface of the moon is radioactive” and specifically what evidence you are basing this on. Then please show how you came to a conclusion that NASA was unaware of the Moon’s radiation environment until recently. As I mentioned in an earlier post, essentially everything is to some extent radioactive. You are measurably radioactive. The dirt you or I walk across is measurably radioactive. What matters is how radioactive. You need to show actual numbers to compare to normal background - it’s meaningless and trivial to just say that the lunar surface is radioactive.

    It would not have been possible to have gone to the moon and not be aware. The dosimetry worn by the astronauts would have detected the radiation. The dust filled space suits would have indicated the lunar surface was radioactive. Throughout the Apollo lunar missions, astronauts exposed themselves to lunar dust and ingested it. They noted that it smelled like gun powder. Theses things would not have happened if NASA had been aware the lunar surface was radioactive.
    All of the things you say above appear to be based on the assumption that the lunar surface is far more radioactive than generally understood, and they all are invalid if it is not as radioactive as you seem to think it is. So again, evidence is required. Incidentally, the gun powder smell is due to chemistry, not radioactivity.

    The 8 day mission without passing through the Van Allen Belt would result in a .24 mgy/day exposure from the GCR of space. Any time spent on the moon would raise that value by 30 to 40% during orbital and surface operation.
    Okay, here you are getting into some very specific claims. Please show how you arrived at these numbers. Please show your work here in detail.

    The fact that the actual exposure rate for the mission was .22 mgy/day means that Apollo 11 did not transit the Van Allen Belt and did orbit or land on the moon. That is if we are to believe the published exposure rates
    Or, far more likely, that you’ve made assumptions and mistakes that make your claims invalid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    It seems another post was approved since I last read this thread. Lord Foul, as a note, moderators have to approve early posts by new users as an anti-spam measure so we don’t always see them right away. That should end before too long as you write more posts.

    Anyway, this one raises a number of questions I’d like to see clarified.



    Please clarify what you mean by “The surface of the moon is radioactive” and specifically what evidence you are basing this on. Then please show how you came to a conclusion that NASA was unaware of the Moon’s radiation environment until recently. As I mentioned in an earlier post, essentially everything is to some extent radioactive. You are measurably radioactive. The dirt you or I walk across is measurably radioactive. What matters is how radioactive. You need to show actual numbers to compare to normal background - it’s meaningless and trivial to just say that the lunar surface is radioactive.



    All of the things you say above appear to be based on the assumption that the lunar surface is far more radioactive than generally understood, and they all are invalid if it is not as radioactive as you seem to think it is. So again, evidence is required. Incidentally, the gun powder smell is due to chemistry, not radioactivity.



    Okay, here you are getting into some very specific claims. Please show how you arrived at these numbers. Please show your work here in detail.



    Or, far more likely, that you’ve made assumptions and mistakes that make your claims invalid.
    "Human exploration of the Moon is associated with substantial risks to astronauts from space radiation. On the surface of the Moon, this consists of the chronic exposure to galactic cosmic rays and sporadic solar particle events. The interaction of this radiation field with the lunar soil leads to a third component that consists of neutral particles, i.e., neutrons and gamma radiation. The Lunar Lander Neutrons and Dosimetry experiment aboard China’s Chang’E 4 lander has made the first ever measurements of the radiation exposure to both charged and neutral particles on the lunar surface. We measured an average total absorbed dose rate in silicon of 13.2 ± 1 μGy/hour and a neutral particle dose rate of 3.1 ± 0.5 μGy/hour." https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/39/eaaz1334

    "In a surprising discovery, scientists have found that the moon itself is a source of potentially deadly radiation.

    Measurements taken by NASA's Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter show that the number of high energy particles streaming in from space did not tail off closer to the moon's surface, as would be expected with the body of the moon blocking half the sky.

    Rather, the cosmic rays created a secondary — and potentially more dangerous -- shower by blasting particles in the lunar soil which then become radioactive.

    "The moon is a source of radiation," said Boston University researcher Harlan Spence, the lead scientist for LRO's cosmic ray telescope. "This was a bit unexpected."" https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna34470642#.Wrren4jwaUl

    So you can see in 2009 the LRO revealed that the moon was a source of radiation and did not act as a shield as expected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Foul View Post
    So you can see in 2009 the LRO revealed that the moon was a source of radiation and did not act as a shield as expected.
    No, I don’t see that. You provided popular press quotes, but no information that support your claims. It is not new information that cosmic ray impacts produce secondaries. It is not new information that the Moon, like the Earth, is a source of radiation. The issue, still again, is the types and amounts of radiation. You have not shown anything that would contradict the Apollo record. You have not shown any evidence to support your claim that the lunar surface is highly radioactive. You have not shown that the body of the Moon would not block much GCR and solar radiation, significantly reducing radiation exposure compared to cislunar space.

    And in regards to this claim in your prior post:

    The 8 day mission without passing through the Van Allen Belt would result in a .24 mgy/day exposure from the GCR of space. Any time spent on the moon would raise that value by 30 to 40% during orbital and surface operation.
    I ask for the second time that you show how you arrived at these numbers. Please show your work in detail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Foul View Post
    The 8 day mission without passing through the Van Allen Belt would result in a .24 mgy/day exposure from the GCR of space.

    I've gone back to this first claim to offer my rebuttal. Notwithstanding that this reading is for a weaker solar maximum by some margin and ignores the effect of SPEs EXCLUSIVE to that time.....I shall use this figure just to do some quick figures.

    Any time spent on the moon would raise that value by 30 to 40% during orbital and surface operation.
    Hogwash in the extreme, it would lower it to roughly 60% of daily GCR rate, 10% of that would has been attributed to the lunar radioactivity.

    The fact that the actual exposure rate for the mission was .22 mgy/day means that Apollo 11 did not transit the Van Allen Belt and did orbit or land on the moon. That is if we are to believe the published exposure rates
    You've chosen the shortest lunar landing mission and rather deceptively the one with the lowest daily rate. Here is a direct analysis by mission:



    Now, taking Apollo 11 as an example and assuming your flawed! figure of 0.24mgy/day:
    Apollo 11 4 days in cislunar space @ 0.24 = 0.98 PLUS 4 days on or around lunar surface @ 60% of 0.24 = 0.576 TOTAL = 1.556mgy ACTUAL 1.8mgy

    According to Bob Brauenig's calculation using mathematics the passage through the VAB added an additional 0.016 rads or 0.16mgy. 1.556 + 0.16 = 1.716 still below actual!

    Considering you screwed up using data that has no bearing on the Period 20 solar maximum, considering you screwed up using SPE data which OBVIOUSLY does not apply to a different period, considering your massive blunder interpreting the intensity of GCRs on or around the Moon......your claim STILL falls below the actual doses reported!

    /thread
    Last edited by Clanger; 2021-Apr-19 at 11:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clanger View Post
    Hogwash in the extreme, it would lower it to roughly 60% of daily GCR rate, 10% of that would has been attributed to the lunar radioactivity.
    Just a bit of a qualifier there: I believe the evidence is that most of the radiation coming from the Moon is due to secondaries produced by GCR particle impacts on the Moon’s surface. If there is evidence much came from lunar radioactivity (unstable nuclei spontaneously coming apart) I haven’t seen it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    Just a bit of a qualifier there: I believe the evidence is that most of the radiation coming from the Moon is due to secondaries produced by GCR particle impacts on the Moon’s surface. If there is evidence much came from lunar radioactivity (unstable nuclei spontaneously coming apart) I haven’t seen it.
    It's an important consideration, isn't it?
    Moon dust will stop emitting secondary neutrons and gammas as soon as you take it out from under the sky sources of irradiation.
    There will also be short-lived radionuclides in the regolith, maintain at some sort of equilibrium population by the irradiation from above, and their population will decline quickly on removal from the radiation source that breeds them--I recall the receiving labs noting that, because of the biological quarantine on Apollo 11 rocks, they were unable to look for any of the very short-life isotopes that might be in the lunar rocks.

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    That is less radioactive than Cornwall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaula View Post
    That is less radioactive than Cornwall.
    But does anyone still believe Apollo 11 landed in Cornwall?

    Sorry. On topic: It was generally known that the Apollo astronauts would be exposed to radiation while they were on the moon, because it was known they'd be exposed to radiation on the way to the moon, from cosmic rays. I'd need to dig through my references, but my recollection is that the dosage rate on the lunar surface and in low lunar orbit turned out to be (predictably) about half of what was received during transit, because the moon shadowed out about half the cosmic rays.

    Grant Hutchison
    Last edited by grant hutchison; 2021-Apr-14 at 08:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    But does anyone still believe Apollo 11 landed in Cornwall?


    That would explain a lot.
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    The other point I would stress is no one in there right mind would willingly inhale radioactive dust without knowing to what extent is was radioactive. A decontamination area would have been established to allow the astronauts to de-suit prior to entering the confined quarters of the lunar lander.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Foul View Post
    The other point I would stress is no one in there right mind would willingly inhale radioactive dust without knowing to what extent is was radioactive. A decontamination area would have been established to allow the astronauts to de-suit prior to entering the confined quarters of the lunar lander.
    The dust was found to be very angular not rounded and tended to cling to the spacesuits not float in the oxygen environment of the LM. You really need to do better research.

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    Scientist also thought radiation levels should be lower in lunar orbit than in cislunar space but was surprised that radiation levels were 30 to 40% higher. It was then that they realized the moon was so radioactive that it elevated orbital radiation above cislunar space.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Foul View Post
    Scientist also thought radiation levels should be lower in lunar orbit than in cislunar space but was surprised that radiation levels were 30 to 40% higher. It was then that they realized the moon was so radioactive that it elevated orbital radiation above cislunar space.
    You have this exactly backward radiation both on the Moon and in Lunar orbit is less than cis-lunar trajectory. The Moon shields the astronauts from GCR.

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    Lord Foul, it looks like you are responding to specific posts. When you do, could you please use rhe “Reply With Quote” function? It makes the discussion easier to follow.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Foul View Post
    Scientist also thought radiation levels should be lower in lunar orbit than in cislunar space but was surprised that radiation levels were 30 to 40% higher.
    What scientists made these statements and specifically what did they say?

    It was then that they realized the moon was so radioactive that it elevated orbital radiation above cislunar space.
    Again: Evidence please. I am seeing a number of claims from you, but so far, no evidence to support them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Foul View Post
    It seems the lunar surface is radioactive so could we have really landed on the moon and not have been aware of this fact?
    It would have been utterly astonishing if the lunar surface wasn’t somewhat radioactive. The Earth’s surface is radioactive, after all, to a varying extent depending on location, but there are always some radioactive isotopes. For that matter, people are radioactive, due to naturally radioactive isotopes in our bodies. Anywhere you go, there will be some radiation exposure and not just due to radioactivity, the important question is how much you will be exposed to.

    And we have rock samples from the Apollo landing sites, so this isn’t exactly a revelation.

    I’ve seen no indication that Apollo astronauts would have had a dangerous radiation exposure, and further there is a great deal of evidence showing the missions occurred, so of course I believe the Apollo 11 LM landed on the Moon, and astronauts from that mission and others walked on the Moon.

    You will need a much better argument than just that Chang'E-4 detected radiation if you’re going to call the Apollo landings into question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Foul View Post
    It seems the lunar surface is radioactive so could we have really landed on the moon and not have been aware of this fact?
    No I don't believe, I know from all the data that was gathered by the program.
    Here is a link to radiation doses that the astronauts received during the missions, you will note that A14 had a higher reading, and that is because one of the badges was broken so only two badges went into their averages.

    https://history.nasa.gov/SP-368/s2ch3.htm

    Direct question to you, What are your understandings concerning the Apollo program? Did the program send 24 men to close proximity to the Moon, land 12 and return all safely?

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    I am not sure any man has ever entered or passed beyond the Van Allen Belt. If anyone of the Apollo missions are proven false then they all are in my mind. If a thing cannot be then it isn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Foul View Post
    I am not sure any man has ever entered or passed beyond the Van Allen Belt. If anyone of the Apollo missions are proven false then they all are in my mind. If a thing cannot be then it isn't.
    Here is a link to recent pics of the various Apollo landing sites made by the LRO. I had an argument with my conspiracy theorist friend about the Van Allen Belts precluding a manned mission beyond LEO. The short answer which I found was that the time in the belt and the part of the belt traversed leads to a minimal/safe exposure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    Here is a link to recent pics of the various Apollo landing sites made by the LRO. I had an argument with my conspiracy theorist friend about the Van Allen Belts precluding a manned mission beyond LEO. The short answer which I found was that the time in the belt and the part of the belt traversed leads to a minimal/safe exposure.

    https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...mageBasicHover
    I am not sure anyone questions the fact that lunar landings have been made. China, Russia, the US and Japan have all made lunar operations. It is the manned missions that beg the question. No other nation has ever left LEO with a manned mission.

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    An article from 2012, entitled Radiation exposure in the moon environment.
    Measurements on the lunar surface performed during the Apollo missions cover only a small energy band for thermal neutrons and are not sufficient to estimate the exposure. Very recently some data were added by the Radiation Dose Monitoring (RADOM) instrument operated during the Indian Chandrayaan Mission and the Cosmic Ray Telescope (CRaTER) instrument of the NASA LRO (Lunar Reconnaisance Orbiter) mission. These measurements need to be complemented by surface measurements.
    So what Chang'E-4 has done is produce more complete data for a radiation risk that was already known about, and was specifically (if partially) investigated by the Apollo missions.

    Grant Hutchison

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    By the way, if anyone wants to read the remarkably detailed analysis of radiation exposure experienced by the Apollo XI astronauts, try to get hold of a copy of Nuclear Track Recordings of the Astronauts' Radiation Exposure on the First Lunar Landing Mission Apollo XI. (Unfortunately all the copies I'm aware of require some sort of institutional access.)
    We have a lot of detail relating to particle energies and doses, but less information about the time sequence of the exposure.

    Grant Hutchison



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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    By the way, if anyone wants to read the remarkably detailed analysis of radiation exposure experienced by the Apollo XI astronauts, try to get hold of a copy of Nuclear Track Recordings of the Astronauts' Radiation Exposure on the First Lunar Landing Mission Apollo XI. (Unfortunately all the copies I'm aware of require some sort of institutional access.)
    We have a lot of detail relating to particle energies and doses, but less information about the time sequence of the exposure.

    Grant Hutchison


    I have a pdf of this paper.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
    I have a pdf of this paper.
    Ah, good.
    My current copy is an antique photocopy dating from 1974, with a first page that has largely faded into illegibility. And those old photocopy machines didn't reproduce photographs at all well.
    So at least this thread has reminded me that I should replace it with third-millennium technology. The National Library of Scotland should let me pull a copy off JSTOR.

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    Does anyone still believe that Apollo 11 landed on the moon after Chang'E-4?
    Well, I should hope not, Apollo 11 landed about fifty years BEFORE Chang’E... ;-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Foul View Post
    It seems the lunar surface is radioactive so could we have really landed on the moon and not have been aware of this fact?
    The unshielded radiation rate of ~0.3 mGy/day was first reported by the very first lunar soft lander, Luna 9, in 1966. The Chang'E-4 radiation data is much more refined than this, but not surprising and not substantially different than what was known prior to the first Apollo landing. No astronaut ever laid down without a space suit on the lunar surface for an extended period, so their absorbed dose is lower than the total unshielded dose. The radiation in low lunar orbit and on the surface of the moon is lower than during the trip to the moon because the moon provides shielding from GCR, and neither the Luna 9 nor the Chang'E-4 data contradicts the Apollo record.

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    I think it is important to concentrate on the undeniable fact that the radiation dose of the Apollo 11 is impossible. It is comparable to all ELO missions. The background radiation in space outside of the Van Allen Belt would result in a higher dose. The moon is a radiation source and rather than shielding background radiation, it raises it. Radiation levels in orbit around the moon and on the surface of the moon would raise mission dosage. This would be true if there was no Van Allen Belt. It is obvious to the casual observer that any exposure in the Van Allen Belt would only increase mission dose. I am not saying lunar radiation is fatal. I am saying it is proof that the stated radiation levels are improbable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Foul View Post
    I think it is important to concentrate on the undeniable fact that the radiation dose of the Apollo 11 is impossible.
    That turns out not to be the case.
    I did a back-of-the-envelope calculation in another Apollo/radiation thread a few years ago, using data available at the time: https://forum.cosmoquest.org/showthr...86#post2446986
    I haven't seen anything from Chang'E-4 data to make me change my mind.

    Grant Hutchison

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