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Thread: Did The Ancients use Phi ?

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    Did The Ancients use Phi ?

    HI ... I'm back . I was just wondering what this audience has to say about The Ancient Romans, Ancient Greeks and of course The Ancient Egyptians and their use of Phi, if they did indeed use it.

    Just curious. and of course you have to know that I have "proof" that they did.

    Regards

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    If you have proof I’m not sure why you’re asking.

    But my impression is that yes, it was known at least in Ancient Greece, though I don’t know about Egypt. And so it doesn’t seem unreasonable that it would have been used in design.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahatmose View Post
    HI ... I'm back . I was just wondering what this audience has to say about The Ancient Romans, Ancient Greeks and of course The Ancient Egyptians and their use of Phi, if they did indeed use it.

    Just curious. and of course you have to know that I have "proof" that they did.

    Regards

    Then welcome back, so you should know the rules of ATM.
    This is not a "discussion place" where you throw up a question.
    Here you present and defend your ideas.
    So please show your "proof".
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    What is the mainstream view on whether the ancients used Phi?

    I assume this refers to a number, not a letter. For the letter, it would appear to depend on whether they understood Greek or not.
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    By Phi I assume you mean the irrational number or Golden Ratio:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

    Some of the greatest mathematical minds of all ages, from Pythagoras and Euclid in ancient Greece, through the medieval Italian mathematician Leonardo of Pisa and the Renaissance astronomer Johannes Kepler, to present-day scientific figures such as Oxford physicist Roger Penrose, have spent endless hours over this simple ratio and its properties.
    According to one story, 5th-century BC mathematician Hippasus discovered that the golden ratio was neither a whole number nor a fraction (an irrational number), surprising Pythagoreans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21st Century Schizoid Man View Post
    What is the mainstream view on whether the ancients used Phi?

    I assume this refers to a number, not a letter. For the letter, it would appear to depend on whether they understood Greek or not.
    The Ancient Greeks undoubtedly knew about the irrational number phi, supposedly so-named after the architect Phidias, and studied by Euclid.
    The "golden ratio" it embodies seems to be found in some Ancient Greek architecture, such as the Parthenon, but there's debate over how much of that was ever deliberate, and how much is just people casting around until they find data that fits the hypothesis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahatmose View Post
    HI ... I'm back . I was just wondering what this audience has to say about The Ancient Romans, Ancient Greeks and of course The Ancient Egyptians and their use of Phi, if they did indeed use it.

    Just curious. and of course you have to know that I have "proof" that they did.

    Regards
    Please define what you mean by “ancient”. Please define what you mean by “use.”

    Also, why do you place the word proof in quotation marks? Is it that you do not have actual proof, only “proof”? I would not want to go to a restaurant to order a substance they refer to in the menu as “food”.

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    I know nothing about pre-Hellenic Egyptian mathematics, but they had advanced engineering and astronomy (used for astrology but whattaya gonna do) so their math skills were nothing to sneeze at. I would not be at all surprised to find they did know the concept of Phi before it was Phi.
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    Hi I am not sure if you would prefer me to state one of my proofs here or if listing a website where I have it posted is acceptable. There are many more proofs but i will try this for a test ..

    To put it in perspective "The Mainstream" are adamant that The Ancient Romans, around 100 BC or so not only had little use for mathematics (even though they credit Julius Caesar for reforming our calendar, wonder how he did that with no math) but never even had a clue about Phi let alone incorporating it into any of their buildings. Well I would like to disagree.

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    Did The Ancients use Phi ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahatmose View Post
    Hi I am not sure if you would prefer me to state one of my proofs here or if listing a website where I have it posted is acceptable.
    Ahatmose,

    You may use your offsite material for specific supporting references but the substance of your presentation must be posted here, in the forum. You may not simply exhort people to go read your web site. So please make your case clearly and directly.

    During your last visit, I asked you to read and follow our rules, which are linked in my signature line below. I further recommend that you read the ATM Forum Advice, also linked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahatmose View Post
    To put it in perspective "The Mainstream" are adamant that The Ancient Romans, around 100 BC or so not only had little use for mathematics (even though they credit Julius Caesar for reforming our calendar, wonder how he did that with no math) but never even had a clue about Phi let alone incorporating it into any of their buildings. Well I would like to disagree.
    So would the mainstream. There are numerous published papers on the Roman use of mathematics. The consensus seems to be that they preferred their maths to be practical but that included it being extensively used to design buildings. Their familairity with Greek work and their passion for (appropriately deferential) Greek learning means that they would have almost certainly been aware of it (Cicero was well aware of Euclid's Elements, for example, which used it in several places).

    The Julian calendar is actually the worst example you could have picked as they used a Greek astronomer to devise it.

    So you might want to turn down the hyperbole here. "The Mainstream" don't make any of the claims you have attributed to them except perhaps that there is no evidence of phi being conciously used in the design of buildings by Roman architects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaula View Post
    So would the mainstream. There are numerous published papers on the Roman use of mathematics. The consensus seems to be that they preferred their maths to be practical but that included it being extensively used to design buildings. Their familairity with Greek work and their passion for (appropriately deferential) Greek learning means that they would have almost certainly been aware of it (Cicero was well aware of Euclid's Elements, for example, which used it in several places).

    The Julian calendar is actually the worst example you could have picked as they used a Greek astronomer to devise it.

    So you might want to turn down the hyperbole here. "The Mainstream" don't make any of the claims you have attributed to them except perhaps that there is no evidence of phi being consciously used in the design of buildings by Roman architects.
    Hi from my research they used Roman Numerals to calculate and it was cumbersome and inefficient method. As to a Greek inventing The Julian calendar could you please point me to a place I could verify that as I have brought up to believe that Augustus and Julius Caesar. This board is always it seems trying to get off the main topic. I am here to discuss Phi. I posted a link to a perfect example The Pantheon and not one comment on that. So I will give you another example and please comment on the fact that do they or do they not show Phi in their construction.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahatmose View Post
    I am here to discuss Phi. I posted a link to a perfect example The Pantheon and not one comment on that. So I will give you another example and please comment on the fact that do they or do they not show Phi in their construction.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Funny you would say that, as I’ve been waiting for you to get on with your argument, whatever it might be. I might check out a link if it looks relevant to an argument presented here, but I’m not not interested in link advertisements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahatmose View Post
    Hi from my research they used Roman Numerals to calculate and it was cumbersome and inefficient method. As to a Greek inventing The Julian calendar could you please point me to a place I could verify that as I have brought up to believe that Augustus and Julius Caesar. This board is always it seems trying to get off the main topic. I am here to discuss Phi. I posted a link to a perfect example The Pantheon and not one comment on that. So I will give you another example and please comment on the fact that do they or do they not show Phi in their construction.

    .
    You brought up the Julian calendar, Ahatmose. And you have not answered my questions. Please do so, rather than blaming others for your derails. Otherwise this thread is headed for the same end as your previous one.

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    Well since as before the main theme of the thread is being ignored which is quite typical I may add as it jut seems that academia chooses to simply ignore the evidence and so I will post another example of Phi in Ancient Rome. Phi at Baalbek

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahatmose View Post
    Well since as before the main theme of the thread is being ignored which is quite typical I may add as it jut seems that academia chooses to simply ignore the evidence[...]
    Ignore WHAT theme? Academia ignores evidence of WHAT? I still haven’t seen you present a coherent and presumably against the mainstream argument in this thread. Yes, I know you’ve brought up Phi but I don’t see what more can be said about it at this point than what’s already been said in thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahatmose View Post
    Well since as before the main theme of the thread is being ignored which is quite typical I may add as it jut seems that academia chooses to simply ignore the evidence and so I will post another example of Phi in Ancient Rome. Phi at Baalbek

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Ahatmose, tone it down, please!
    Nothing is being ignored here.
    The fact is that you bring here nothing of substance. You show a couple of figures with numbers, and the participants in this thread just have to understand what is meant? A bit of explanation would be very welcome.
    Also, you have not stated your case in any coherent form.
    Please take some tme to work on this and then present your case against the mainstream. So far, I see none.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahatmose View Post
    As to a Greek inventing The Julian calendar could you please point me to a place I could verify that as I have brought up to believe that Augustus and Julius Caesar.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...hematics#Roman / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sosigenes_of_Alexandria
    https://www.britannica.com/science/Julian-calendar / https://www.britannica.com/biography...-of-Alexandria

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahatmose View Post
    This board is always it seems trying to get off the main topic. I am here to discuss Phi. I posted a link to a perfect example The Pantheon and not one comment on that. So I will give you another example and please comment on the fact that do they or do they not show Phi in their construction.
    Actually there was a point to what I posted. I wanted you to define the hypothesis that you are defending. If your hypothesis is "Romans used mathematics" then it is trivially proven from mainstream sources. If it is "Romans knew about phi" then it is trivially proven from mainstream sources. I'm assuming you have some theory about them conciously basing buildings designs on it. So please clearly define your hypothesis and how you intend to prove it.

    And I'm not following your links unless they are references to sources supporting your claims. Present your hypothesis, method and arguments here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahatmose View Post
    Well since as before the main theme of the thread is being ignored which is quite typical I may add as it jut seems that academia chooses to simply ignore the evidence and so I will post another example of Phi in Ancient Rome.
    Posters here have presented cited evidence and academic documentation, that the "ancients"* made multiple uses of Phi. That IS the mainstream view. No one claimed otherwise.

    * Hellenic Greeks, Pre-Christian Romans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaula View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...hematics#Roman / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sosigenes_of_Alexandria
    https://www.britannica.com/science/Julian-calendar / https://www.britannica.com/biography...-of-Alexandria


    Actually there was a point to what I posted. I wanted you to define the hypothesis that you are defending. If your hypothesis is "Romans used mathematics" then it is trivially proven from mainstream sources. If it is "Romans knew about phi" then it is trivially proven from mainstream sources. I'm assuming you have some theory about them conciously basing buildings designs on it. So please clearly define your hypothesis and how you intend to prove it.

    And I'm not following your links unless they are references to sources supporting your claims. Present your hypothesis, method and arguments here.
    You state that the use of Phi by The Ancient Romans is proven in Mainstream sources. Not sure if these sources are in English for I have never seen or heard it said that Phi was the contributing factor in building The Pantheon, The Arch of Titius or The Temple of Venus at Baalbek. It is, as far as I know not acknowledged by anything I have ever read, These buildings are built to the phi proportions and until you can point to a source that says otherwise, that is that it has been mentioned before, I will assume it is new observations that for some reason this board is reluctant to admit.

    So please point the members to your sources that show The Ancient Romans used Phi. They and I would love to read about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahatmose View Post
    You state that the use of Phi by The Ancient Romans is proven in Mainstream sources. Not sure if these sources are in English for I have never seen or heard it said that Phi was the contributing factor in building The Pantheon, The Arch of Titius or The Temple of Venus at Baalbek. It is, as far as I know not acknowledged by anything I have ever read, These buildings are built to the phi proportions and until you can point to a source that says otherwise, that is that it has been mentioned before, I will assume it is new observations that for some reason this board is reluctant to admit.

    So please point the members to your sources that show The Ancient Romans used Phi. They and I would love to read about it.
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    Well one property of phi is that if you draw a golden ratio rectangle and then square off using the short side, you have another golden ratio rectangle. This trick of geometry “must “ have been known. Surely?
    sicut vis videre esto
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahatmose View Post
    You state that the use of Phi by The Ancient Romans is proven in Mainstream sources. Not sure if these sources are in English for I have never seen or heard it said that Phi was the contributing factor in building The Pantheon, The Arch of Titius or The Temple of Venus at Baalbek. It is, as far as I know not acknowledged by anything I have ever read, These buildings are built to the phi proportions and until you can point to a source that says otherwise, that is that it has been mentioned before, I will assume it is new observations that for some reason this board is reluctant to admit.

    So please point the members to your sources that show The Ancient Romans used Phi. They and I would love to read about it.
    Ahatmose

    Shaula posted multiple links in the posts you quoted.

    But it isn't up to Shaula or anyone else to prove the mainstream. It is entirely your responsibility in this thread to answer questions and provide evidence of what you propose, and so far you have ignored advice from several moderators to clearly state what you propose, to post evidence for this, and to answer questions put to you.

    You need to start doing this in the very next post or you will be infracted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Posters here have presented cited evidence and academic documentation, that the "ancients"* made multiple uses of Phi. That IS the mainstream view. No one claimed otherwise.

    * Hellenic Greeks, Pre-Christian Romans.
    Where have these been cited. There has not been one example shown.

    I must have missed them, could you direct me to these sources that have been cited again please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    "If I haven't found it in my Google search, it's never been discovered before."
    Noclevername

    You've been here long enough to know that this is not acceptable. Do not resort to ad hominem or personal attacks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    Ahatmose

    Shaula posted multiple links in the posts you quoted.

    But it isn't up to Shaula or anyone else to prove the mainstream. It is entirely your responsibility in this thread to answer questions and provide evidence of what you propose, and so far you have ignored advice from several moderators to clearly state what you propose, to post evidence for this, and to answer questions put to you.

    You need to start doing this in the very next post or you will be infracted.
    I see he has shown Julius Caesar did indeed consult The Greeks, I was wring on that point but my thread is on Phi and I have yet to see anybody show me anything about Phi and mainstream.

    His one article, which I had already read did not mention Phi at all. Even saying they got help form The Greeks, The Greeks are not acknowledged to have used Phi either except for a few who suggest it was used at The Parthenon and nowhere else and the examples used are very crude. So I guess failing not even one article or source about Phi in the ancient world I guess this is either being ignored or just not seen.

    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahatmose View Post
    I see he has shown Julius Caesar did indeed consult The Greeks, I was wring on that point but my thread is on Phi and I have yet to see anybody show me anything about Phi and mainstream.

    His one article, which I had already read did not mention Phi at all. Even saying they got help form The Greeks, The Greeks are not acknowledged to have used Phi either except for a few who suggest it was used at The Parthenon and nowhere else and the examples used are very crude. So I guess failing not even one article or source about Phi in the ancient world I guess this is either being ignored or just not seen.

    .
    Ahatmose

    I told you to clearly state your proposal, to start presenting your evidence, and to start answering questions. You did none of this and instead argued moderation in thread (itself a rule violation). This will earn you an infraction.

    If you do not start doing what you've been instructed to do in your very next post, you will be infracted and suspended and this thread will be closed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    Ahatmose

    I told you to clearly state your proposal, to start presenting your evidence, and to start answering questions. You did none of this and instead argued moderation in thread (itself a rule violation). This will earn you an infraction.

    If you do not start doing what you've been instructed to do in your very next post, you will be infracted and suspended and this thread will be closed.
    Hi I am not quite sure I understand what is meant by evidence. Am I expected to have the exact measurements of any building, for example or is showing that it is inherent in the geometry of phi good enough for this board. Phi is inherent in the ratio of of a rectangle 1 by 1.618034 and within this box an extended pentagram can be drawn with the circle as a radius of 1. See supplied link to image #1Click image for larger version. 

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    These show the rectangle that the extended pentagram is drawn in, hence if one finds that the pentagram fits, Phi has to have been used.

    This is a fact of mathematics and geometry . And another fact of geometry is that it also fits ... The Great Pyramid.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    So when one sees that it fits the three examples I have set before you it is reasonable to infer that Phi has been used,

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    But it gets much better. for the Ancients knew there would be disbelievers and so they incorporated anther two pentagrams into The Great Pyramid where no one would ever suspect and I only found by ... well let's call it "luck"

    Observe:

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    Pretty clever of them I thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahatmose View Post
    Hi I am not quite sure I understand what is meant by evidence. Am I expected to have the exact measurements of any building, for example or is showing that it is inherent in the geometry of phi good enough for this board. Phi is inherent in the ratio of of a rectangle 1 by 1.618034 and within this box an extended pentagram can be drawn with the circle as a radius of 1. See supplied link to image #1Click image for larger version. 

Name:	extendedpentagramshrunkct3.jpg 
Views:	34 
Size:	89.9 KB 
ID:	26110 and this image enclosed. Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tn_Wood_pentagram 001_cropped.png 
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ID:	26111

    These show the rectangle that the extended pentagram is drawn in, hence if one finds that the pentagram fits, Phi has to have been used.

    This is a fact of mathematics and geometry . And another fact of geometry is that it also fits ... The Great Pyramid.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2021-04-24_212207.png 
Views:	37 
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ID:	26112

    So when one sees that it fits the three examples I have set before you it is reasonable to infer that Phi has been used,

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