# Thread: Photon splitting in a highly magnetized pulsar

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## Photon splitting in a highly magnetized pulsar

So just a magnetic field by its own can increase the probability of photon splitting?
https://cds.cern.ch/record/469516/files/0010400.pdf

Which would imply matter & "probable" gravitons really have electro-magnetic properties since they can be created from a pure emf...
Last edited by philippeb8; 2021-May-21 at 06:30 AM.

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The magnetic field breaks a symmetry that otherwise blocks it from happening. It is explained in the section 2.11 Photon Splitting.

Can you explain what you mean and what your logic is for what you have said in your second sentence? Any charged particle has "electromagnetic properties". And photon splitting doesn't genreate any matter - it is competing with a process (pair production) that produces lepton/anti-lepton pairs. Gravitons don't appear in that paper once and don't seem to be relevant to the interactions described.

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Originally Posted by Shaula
The magnetic field breaks a symmetry that otherwise blocks it from happening. It is explained in the section 2.11 Photon Splitting.

Can you explain what you mean and what your logic is for what you have said in your second sentence? Any charged particle has "electromagnetic properties". And photon splitting doesn't genreate any matter - it is competing with a process (pair production) that produces lepton/anti-lepton pairs. Gravitons don't appear in that paper once and don't seem to be relevant to the interactions described.
Here's a better article which shows photons can split into electrons / positrons, which has matter, thus will emit "gravitons":
https://ujp.bitp.kiev.ua/index.php/u...e/view/2019621

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4. Originally Posted by philippeb8
Here's a better article which shows photons can split into electrons / positrons, which has matter, thus will emit "gravitons":
https://ujp.bitp.kiev.ua/index.php/u...e/view/2019621
Photons are energy, and therefore also have a gravitational effect--so there's no gravitational difference between a box of photons and a box of the electron/positron pairs produced by those photons.

Grant Hutchison

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Originally Posted by grant hutchison
Photons are energy, and therefore also have a gravitational effect--so there's no gravitational difference between a box of photons and a box of the electron/positron pairs produced by those photons.

Grant Hutchison
You mean pure energy emits gravitons?

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Originally Posted by philippeb8
Here's a better article which shows photons can split into electrons / positrons, which has matter, thus will emit "gravitons":
https://ujp.bitp.kiev.ua/index.php/u...e/view/2019621

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Same thing with the following research:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/...rons-positrons

So matter has a direct relation with emf.

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7. Originally Posted by philippeb8
You mean pure energy emits gravitons?
I don't know what "pure energy" would be, but energy is mass and mass is energy, and anything with mass-energy has a gravitational field, and gravitons are the hypothetical force carriers for the gravitational field, in the same way virtual photons mediate the force of an electromagnetic field.
So in a theory of quantum gravity, collections of mass-energy (including boxes of photons) would be attracted to each other by the mediation of gravitons.

Grant Hutchison

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Originally Posted by grant hutchison
I don't know what "pure energy" would be, but energy is mass and mass is energy, and anything with mass-energy has a gravitational field, and gravitons are the hypothetical force carriers for the gravitational field, in the same way virtual photons mediate the force of an electromagnetic field.
So in a theory of quantum gravity, collections of mass-energy (including boxes of photons) would be attracted to each other by the mediation of gravitons.

Grant Hutchison
Ah-ha! That is very interesting because that would affect the gravitational field around some neutron star by "spreading" gravity away.

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9. Originally Posted by philippeb8
Ah-ha! That is very interesting because that would affect the gravitational field around some neutron star by "spreading" gravity away.
I have no idea what you mean by that.

Grant Hutchison

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Originally Posted by grant hutchison
I have no idea what you mean by that.

Grant Hutchison
So if each photon emitted by the neutron star emits gravitons continuously then the entire emf field emitted by the star will propagate away gravity. So that would change all the calculation specially for huge stars.

11. I don't know what you mean by "change all the calculation".
We know, for instance, that the sun loses about four million tonnes of mass per second in the process of fusing hydrogen to helium. It emits the equivalent amount of mass-energy in the form of photons and neutrinos. Basically, in order to radiate energy, an object has to lose an equivalent amount of mass.

Heating an object makes it more massive, because it acquires energy in the thermal motion of its atoms. It then loses that mass-energy by emitting photons. So a neutron star will lose mass as it cools and emits photons.

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Originally Posted by grant hutchison
I don't know what you mean by "change all the calculation".
We know, for instance, that the sun loses about four million tonnes of mass per second in the process of fusing hydrogen to helium. It emits the equivalent amount of mass-energy in the form of photons and neutrinos. Basically, in order to radiate energy, an object has to lose an equivalent amount of mass.

Heating an object makes it more massive, because it acquires energy in the thermal motion of its atoms. It then loses that mass-energy by emitting photons. So a neutron star will lose mass as it cools and emits photons.

Grant Hutchison
Ok thanks. But my question was already answered here on Quora (as I recall Quora has some copyright rules I believe):
https://qr.ae/pGyGkF

So the answer is: no. But my real question is: if a photon can split into an electron / positron then can it emits gravitons within that time frame?
Last edited by philippeb8; 2021-May-21 at 03:30 PM.

13. Originally Posted by philippeb8
So if each photon emitted by the neutron star emits gravitons continuously then the entire emf field emitted by the star will propagate away gravity. So that would change all the calculation specially for huge stars.

This is not the ATM forum.

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My second question is: what is the equation that represents the probability of a photon split relative to the magnetic field amplitude?
Last edited by philippeb8; 2021-May-21 at 03:32 PM.

15. Originally Posted by philippeb8
Ok thanks. But my question was already answered here on Quora (as I recall Quora has some copyright rules I believe):
https://qr.ae/pGyGkF

So the answer is: no. But my real question is: if a photon can split into an electron / positron then can it emits graviton within that time frame?
I think you have a fundamental misapprehension about how quantum gravity would work. It's not that massive objects continuously emit gravitons, but that gravitons mediate the interaction between massive objects, in the same way virtual photons mediate the action of the electromagnetic field. So asking "Do photons emit gravitons?" is not the same question as "Do photons have a gravitational field?"
It's wrong to imagine massive objects continuously leaking gravitons into space--that's not how force carriers work.

Grant Hutchison
Last edited by grant hutchison; 2021-May-21 at 03:42 PM. Reason: typo

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Originally Posted by grant hutchison
I think you have a fundamental misapprehension about how quantum gravity would work. It's not that massive objects continuously emit gravitons, but that gravitons mediate the interaction between massive objects, in the same way virtual photons mediate the action of the electromagnetic field. So asking "Do photons emit gravitons?" is not the same question as "Do photons have a gravitational field?"
It's wrong to imagine massive objects continuously leaking gravitons into space--that's not how force carriers work.

Grant Hutchison
Ok. So I'm confused as to how to ask the questions then but hopefully you get the idea of what I am trying to say.

If a photon can split into an electron / positron then there is a relation with EMF and mass / gravity. Also I would really like to know the answer to the 2nd question which is the mathematical equation that relates the probability of photon splitting and the magnetic field amplitude.

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Originally Posted by philippeb8
Ok. So I'm confused as to how to ask the questions then but hopefully you get the idea of what I am trying to say.

If a photon can split into an electron / positron then there is a relation with EMF and mass / gravity. Also I would really like to know the answer to the 2nd question which is the mathematical equation that relates the probability of photon splitting and the magnetic field amplitude.

Ok the 2nd question is answered somewhere in this manuscript:
https://cds.cern.ch/record/300629/files/9604028.pdf

18. Originally Posted by philippeb8
Ok the 2nd question is answered somewhere in this manuscript:
https://cds.cern.ch/record/300629/files/9604028.pdf
Are you asking for someone to search the manuscript for you? Because that's what it sounds like to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

19. Originally Posted by philippeb8
Ok. So I'm confused as to how to ask the questions then but hopefully you get the idea of what I am trying to say.

If a photon can split into an electron / positron then there is a relation with EMF and mass / gravity.
No, I don't get the idea. I don't see what connection you're attempting to make.

Grant Hutchison

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Originally Posted by Noclevername
Are you asking for someone to search the manuscript for you? Because that's what it sounds like to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
No actually I'm doing multiple things at the same time and I posted the link to help people answering the question actually. So I posted the link for the opposite reason.

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Originally Posted by grant hutchison
No, I don't get the idea. I don't see what connection you're attempting to make.

Grant Hutchison
Ok well let's stick to my 2nd question then.

22. Originally Posted by philippeb8
No actually I'm doing multiple things at the same time and I posted the link to help people answering the question actually. So I posted the link for the opposite reason.
Sorry, I find this wording confusing.

Originally Posted by philippeb8
Ok. So I'm confused as to how to ask the questions then but hopefully you get the idea of what I am trying to say.

If a photon can split into an electron / positron then there is a relation with EMF and mass / gravity.
Of course photons have a relation to the EMF, they're quantized from it. And as already described, all energy has mass including photons.

As far as "gravitons", at this point they remain purely hypothetical particles. There's no physical evidence of their existence.

23. Originally Posted by philippeb8
Ok well let's stick to my 2nd question then.
Didn't you say you already found a document with the answer? https://cds.cern.ch/record/300629/files/9604028.pdf

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Originally Posted by Noclevername
Didn't you say you already found a document with the answer? https://cds.cern.ch/record/300629/files/9604028.pdf
Yeah but I didn't have a chance to read it yet. I need to prepare a presentation in 10 minutes so I'll read it later this afternoon.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Noclevername
And as already described, all energy has mass including photons.
Ok thanks.

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Originally Posted by philippeb8
If a photon can split into an electron / positron then there is a relation with EMF and mass / gravity. Also I would really like to know the answer to the 2nd question which is the mathematical equation that relates the probability of photon splitting and the magnetic field amplitude.
You need to be more careful with your terms here. The paper you started with talks about photon splitting (which is one photon becoming two photons in the presence of a magnetic field) and pair production (a photon becoming an electron positron pair). Both of these are QED interactions (third and first order respectively). It doesn't imply a relationship between the electroweak force and gravity just because some particles feel both any more than the fact that charged quarks interact via the strong, weak, electric and gravitational forces implies there has to be a relationship between them.

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Originally Posted by Shaula
You need to be more careful with your terms here. The paper you started with talks about photon splitting (which is one photon becoming two photons in the presence of a magnetic field) and pair production (a photon becoming an electron positron pair). Both of these are QED interactions (third and first order respectively). It doesn't imply a relationship between the electroweak force and gravity just because some particles feel both any more than the fact that charged quarks interact via the strong, weak, electric and gravitational forces implies there has to be a relationship between them.
Ok thanks for the clarifications, Shaula.

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Originally Posted by Shaula
You need to be more careful with your terms here. The paper you started with talks about photon splitting (which is one photon becoming two photons in the presence of a magnetic field) and pair production (a photon becoming an electron positron pair). Both of these are QED interactions (third and first order respectively). It doesn't imply a relationship between the electroweak force and gravity just because some particles feel both any more than the fact that charged quarks interact via the strong, weak, electric and gravitational forces implies there has to be a relationship between them.
Thanks again Shaula, I appreciate the clarifications. But this leads to the following question regarding 2 photons collision creating an electron/positron pair:
https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstrac...ett.122.014802

(Although I cannot read the paper)

This suggests that matter can effectively be created from pure electro-magnetic energy, right?

29. Originally Posted by philippeb8
This suggests that matter can effectively be created from pure electro-magnetic energy, right?
If an electron-positron pair counts as "matter" and a photon counts as "pure electromagnetic energy", then yes.

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Originally Posted by grant hutchison
If an electron-positron pair counts as "matter" and a photon counts as "pure electromagnetic energy", then yes.

Grant Hutchison
Ok thank you very much!

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