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Thread: Electic and magnetic field's virtual particles interaction

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    Electic and magnetic field's virtual particles interaction

    Suppose I have moving electrons in a wire to create electricity at location A and 2 observers (O1 & O2) 10 km apart both measuring the magnetic and electric fields respectively:

    O1 <---------- 10 km ----------> A <---------- 10 km ----------> O2

    Now O1 decides to bring out a magnet after, let's say, 5 minutes. Will O2 observe a change in the electric field at the exact same 5 minutes time interval?

    I guess I'm wondering if the virtual particles of both fields are somehow entangled.

    Thank you.

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    I'm not the best person to walk through this, but the math is interesting to me and was explained by someone on this board. Due to your distances, they approximately see the change in the field 5 minutes later. There is a delay due to the speed of light, the transfer of information, etc. You can do the math or the observation and get some really tight numbers. Edit - Your doing an observation, so you have error bars. In this case, it's two observations, so two sets of possibly different error bars.

    I recall the thread where this concept came up because it was so creative. The gist was "What if you built a giant clock and pushed towards an observer, what would the time discrepancy be? What if you moved it away?"

    Then there is a bit of ambiguity because the observer apparently didn't know that the change was coming and would have to ask, "Gee, when did you make that change?" That gets to mucking around with the one way speed of light, synchronization of clocks, etc.

    I really don't understand entanglement in this scenario. My take on it is, if someone decides to mess with entangled particles at noon then the entangled state is resolved instantaneously. However, no observer knew this was going to happen noon, so they wouldn't know what happened, when it happened or even "when" it is right now. Things just changed at the detector.

    I could be wrong at any one of these statement.
    Solfe

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    So I guess this has never been done and brings confusion more than anything else.

    Again I suspect the magnetic and electric counterpart "entangled" but at long distances.

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    Electricity and magnetism sound like a 19th century thing but we still don't understand them perfectly...

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    Quote Originally Posted by philippeb8 View Post
    So I guess this has never been done and brings confusion more than anything else.

    Again I suspect the magnetic and electric counterpart "entangled" but at long distances.
    What do you mean it's never been done? There are youtube videos and consumer products for this experiment, at least to the extent of measurement of electric and magnetic fields at a distance.

    According to my super limited understanding of electrons in these fields, entanglement is known to be low. However, I flat out say, this sort of math is wildly beyond my abilities.
    Solfe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    What do you mean it's never been done? There are youtube videos and consumer products for this experiment, at least to the extent of measurement of electric and magnetic fields at a distance.

    According to my super limited understanding of electrons in these fields, entanglement is known to be low. However, I flat out say, this sort of math is wildly beyond my abilities.
    I am interested into the reaction of the electric field 10 km away after altering the magnetic field also 10 km away and to see if one or the other is reacting to its counterpart alteration instantaneously 20 km apart. I wouldn't be surprised both electric and magnetic components are linked or "entangled".

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    So in effect, setting aside the distractions of the wire and the oddly precise ten kilometres, you're asking if an electromagnetic field can transmit a signal faster than light?

    Grant Hutchison
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    Quote Originally Posted by philippeb8 View Post
    I am interested into the reaction of the electric field 10 km away after altering the magnetic field also 10 km away and to see if one or the other is reacting to its counterpart alteration instantaneously 20 km apart.
    To my knowledge, this happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by philippeb8 View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised both electric and magnetic components are linked or "entangled".
    Why? and How? come to mind.

    If entanglement has been measured and shown to be low with certain methods of pair production why the "linked" or "entangled" statement? Can be, doesn't have to be. As I understand entanglement, it involves trying to get exact answers to a Schrodinger equation. I suspect some people find this fun. I don't. I just see squiggly lines. I don't understand math that well.

    What is the purpose of this line of inquiry? To me it looks like trying to pull workable energy out of a system. You haven't said that at all, but it logically follows. At least to me. Circle back to my first post, my math and logic skills are famously bad, as evidenced by posts on this board. I could be totally wrong.
    Last edited by Solfe; 2021-Oct-17 at 10:08 PM.
    Solfe

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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    So in effect, setting aside the distractions of the wire and the oddly precise ten kilometres, you're asking if an electromagnetic field can transmit a signal faster than light?
    No sorry: if a magnetic component affects it electric counterpart instantaneously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by philippeb8 View Post
    No sorry: if a magnetic component affects it electric counterpart instantaneously.
    Yes, that's what I said. If what you're asking about actually happened, it would allow an electromagnetic field to transmit a signal faster than light.
    Virtual photons don't come labelled "magnetic" and "electric"--they're force-carriers for the electromagnetic field, and the forces they mediate can in fact look electric for one observer, and magnetic to another in relative motion.

    Grant Hutchison
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Yes, that's what I said. If what you're asking about actually happened, it would allow an electromagnetic field to transmit a signal faster than light.
    Virtual photons don't come labelled "magnetic" and "electric"--they're force-carriers for the electromagnetic field, and the forces they mediate can in fact look electric for one observer, and magnetic to another in relative motion.
    Yes but are the forces "entangled", in the sense if you affect one then its counterpart is altered instantaneously?

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    Since you do look like youíre trying to work your way from entanglement to faster than light communication, Iíll cut to the chase: entanglement in any form does not allow for information to be communicated faster than light. If it did, it would have implications for relatively and time travel. This often comes up, and popular science writers too often either get it flat wrong or donít write carefully enough.

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." ó Abraham Lincoln

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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    Since you do look like you’re trying to work your way from entanglement to faster than light communication, I’ll cut to the chase: entanglement in any form does not allow for information to be communicated faster than light. If it did, it would have implications for relatively and time travel. This often comes up, and popular science writers too often either get it flat wrong or don’t write carefully enough.
    I was mostly wondering if the experiment I am proposing ever been done yet but it doesn't sound like it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by philippeb8 View Post
    Yes but are the forces "entangled", in the sense if you affect one then its counterpart is altered instantaneously?
    Yes, I understand what you wrote. It just doesn't seem to be a coherent question, for reasons already given.

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    Quote Originally Posted by philippeb8 View Post
    I was mostly wondering if the experiment I am proposing ever been done yet but it doesn't sound like it.
    Can you think of a physical reason as to why an electron pair wouldn't travel through 10 km of open air or vacuum to make the observation?
    Solfe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    Can you think of a physical reason as to why an electron pair wouldn't travel through 10 km of open air or vacuum to make the observation?
    Sorry but I wasn't referring to electrons, but electric and magnetic force components.

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    Quote Originally Posted by philippeb8 View Post
    Yes but are the forces "entangled", in the sense if you affect one then its counterpart is altered instantaneously?
    As mentioned in the other thread the distinction isn't a real one in quantum theories - you just have the electromagnetic interaction. As you are talking about entanglement this would be the theory to apply. Changes in the configuration of the electromagnetic field propagate at the speed of light.

    There are no seperate virtual particles for electric and magnetic fields, there is nothing to be entangled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaula View Post
    As mentioned in the other thread the distinction isn't a real one in quantum theories - you just have the electromagnetic interaction. As you are talking about entanglement this would be the theory to apply. Changes in the configuration of the electromagnetic field propagate at the speed of light.

    There are no seperate virtual particles for electric and magnetic fields, there is nothing to be entangled.
    Ok thanks for the clarifications.

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    I really don't understand entanglement in this scenario. My take on it is, if someone decides to mess with entangled particles at noon then the entangled state is resolved instantaneously. However, no observer knew this was going to happen noon, so they wouldn't know what happened, when it happened or even "when" it is right now. Things just changed at the detector.

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    Quote Originally Posted by philippeb8 View Post
    Suppose I have moving electrons in a wire to create electricity at location A and 2 observers (O1 & O2) 10 km apart both measuring the magnetic and electric fields respectively:

    O1 <---------- 10 km ----------> A <---------- 10 km ----------> O2

    Now O1 decides to bring out a magnet after, let's say, 5 minutes. Will O2 observe a change in the electric field at the exact same 5 minutes time interval?

    I guess I'm wondering if the virtual particles of both fields are somehow entangled.

    Thank you.
    Here's an link to an interesting video that's closely related to what you're asking.
    I know that I know nothing, so I question everything. - Socrates/Descartes

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