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Thread: There's no pleasing some people

  1. #1
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    There's no pleasing some people

    So an interpretation of the Scouring of the Shire is Tolkein's unhappiness over the industrialisation of Birmingham. The growth of manufacturing = bad.

    Then when Maggie closes all the manufacturing in Birmingham, everyone gets in an uproar.

    Make up your minds!

    Do you want manufacturing in Birmingham or not?

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    Nobody wants industrialisation, everyone wants jobs.

    Nobodyss ever completely pleased.
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    1) False dichtonomy, Glom.

    Sustainable industrialization (responsible logging, reasonable fishing, deep mining, nuclear energy development, etc) is good. Exploitive industrialization (unregulated strip mining, clear-cutting of rare-type forests, massive unregulated coal-burning, toxic waste dumping into streambeds, etc) is bad.

    2) You're equating the alleged viewpoint of one J.R.R. Tolkien to some monolithic, imagined, and personally-interpreted viewpoint of an entire community.

    Time to grind your axes again, Glom?
    "Words that make questions may not be questions at all."
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    at a 2010 talk MCed by Stephen Colbert.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 777 geek
    So an interpretation of the Scouring of the Shire is Tolkein's unhappiness over the industrialisation of Birmingham.
    IIRC, Mordor was based on his visits to Leeds.

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    Tolkien didn't even like cars.
    Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.

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    I think the confusion can be explained best as follows:

    Tolkien: Academic. Writes about wonderful fantasy past ages. Does not gain work from mills. Wants them closed.

    Mill Workers: Gain work from mills. Do not want them closed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortis
    IIRC, Mordor was based on his visits to Leeds.
    You may be right. Having experienced a crowd of Leeds FC supporters, I can see where he got his inspiration for orcs.

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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by ToSeek
    Tolkien didn't even like cars.
    Must have had a bad experience with a Pinto or Vega.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 777 geek
    So an interpretation of the Scouring of the Shire is Tolkein's unhappiness over the industrialisation of Birmingham.
    Are you sure that the shire doesn't represent Tolkien's mother? And mordor is his father, who he wants to kill (of course) for claiming ownership of "the ring" which obviously represents his mother's virginity.

    j/k, I just find it amusing to apply Freudian logic to everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tofu
    Are you sure that the shire doesn't represent Tolkien's mother? And mordor is his father, who he wants to kill (of course) for claiming ownership of "the ring" which obviously represents his mother's virginity.

    j/k, I just find it amusing to apply Freudian logic to everything.
    And hobbits are very fond of cigars.
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    I went to a panel once that went through a whole host of interpretations of Lord of the Rings, from Freudian to Marxist (which actually came down against the purported heroes, standing up for the oppressed and maligned working-class orcs against the effete, aristocratic elves). I'll have to figure out what I did with my notes....
    Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift
    And hobbits are very fond of cigars.
    Sometimes a pipe is just a pipe. Even in English.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToSeek
    Tolkien didn't even like cars.
    Edward Elgar, a famous british composer (Pomp and Circumstance Marches) also disliked "modern" (1900) technology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tofu
    Are you sure that the shire doesn't represent Tolkien's mother? And mordor is his father, who he wants to kill (of course) for claiming ownership of "the ring" which obviously represents his mother's virginity.
    (I know this was a joke, but I'm going to respond anyways...)

    Unlikely, since Tolkien's father died when he was 3 and his mother died when he was 12.

    It does go a long way to explaining why so many protagonists in Middle-Earth have lost one or both parents. Frodo's parents died in a boating accident. Aragorn's father was killed by orcs. Eomer & Eowen's father (and I believe mother) was dead. Arwen's mother had "gone into the West" which is a death parallel. Etc, etc.

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    Actually, to go West has been British slang for "to die" since well before LOTR was published. It's mentioned in Strong Poison, by Dorothy L. Sayers.
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    Just so y'all know, I'm not pleased with the direction this thread is going...



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    Going into the West was actually first given as an anology of death by the ancient Egytians 3000 years ago. The sun set in the West and was reborn in the East, and that's why most burial sites are on the West bank of the Nile.

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    I believe you misunderstand

    Oh, I wasn't suggesting Tolkien invented it. I just didn't want people to think Arwen's mother had just popped off for a quick vacation at the beach. I was saying that it would have been stressful fo Arwen and her brothers just as if their mother had died.

    (Editd becasue Crl cant tyep tday)

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    You may not be suggesting he invented it, but I've encountered LOTR fans who have.
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    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

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    You'd think LOTR fans would be a bit more up on their mythology.
    Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.

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    No kidding

    Quote Originally Posted by ToSeek
    You'd think LOTR fans would be a bit more up on their mythology.
    No kidding. Especially when the Professor loved to point out his sources (for example the names of the dwarves in Thorin's company as well as Gandalf himself all come from an Icelandic saga- something Tolkien never tried to hide. Also, he was very forthright about the very strong Judeo-Christan influences in his writing).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matherly
    No kidding. Especially when the Professor loved to point out his sources (for example the names of the dwarves in Thorin's company as well as Gandalf himself all come from an Icelandic saga- something Tolkien never tried to hide. Also, he was very forthright about the very strong Judeo-Christan influences in his writing).
    Actually most dwarven names, not just the ones in The Hobbit are from Völuspá.
    The high Gods gathered in council.
    In their hall of judgement: Who of the dwarves
    Should mould man by master craft
    From Brimir's blood and Blain' s limbs?

    Motsognir was their mighty ruler,
    Greatest of dwarves, and Durin after him :
    The dwarves did as Durin directed,
    Many man forms made from the earth.

    Nyi and Nidi, Nordri, Sudri, Austri and Vestri, Althjof, Dvalin, Bivor,
    Bavor, Bombur, Nori, An and Anar, Ai, Mjodvitnir, Veignr and Gandalf,
    Vindalf, Thorin, Thror and Thrain, Thekkur, Litur, Vitur, Nar and Nyradur,
    Fili, Kili, Fundin, Nali Hefti, Vili, Hanar, Sviur, Billing, Bruni, Bildur,
    and Buri, Frar, Hornbori Fraegur, Loni, Aurvangur, Jari, Eikinskjaldi:
    (All Durin's folk I have duly named,)

    I must tell of the dwarves in Dvalin' s host;
    Like lions they were in Lofar's time:
    In Juravale's marsh they made their dwelling,
    From their Stone hall set out on journeys,

    There was Draupnir and Dolgthrasir, Har, Haugspori, Hlevangur, Gloi, Dori,
    Ori, Dufur, Andvari, Skirvir, Virvir Skafidur, Ai, Alf and Yngvi,
    Eikinskjaldi, Fjalar and Frosti, Finn and Ginnar: Men will remember while
    men live
    The long line of Lofar's forbears.
    __________________________________________________
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenrikOlsen
    Actually most dwarven names, not just the ones in The Hobbit are from Völuspá.
    <Matherly bows to HenrikOlsen's superior knowledge>

    Thanks for finding that. I knew the Professor got it some somewhere.

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    Yes. You would think that. However, I think these are new LOTR fans, as in since-the-movie fans, who now they've discovered it think it's the ultimate fiction of life, the universe, and everything, that there was nothing before it and nothing worthwhile after it that doesn't borrow on it in some way. Which is ridiculous, really--everyone knows that's Shakespeare.
    _____________________________________________
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    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren
    However, I think these are new LOTR fans, as in since-the-movie fans, who now they've discovered it think it's the ultimate fiction of life, the universe, and everything, that there was nothing before it and nothing worthwhile after it that doesn't borrow on it in some way.
    Well, it is. Or rather, it will be once I get around to sending back in time so that it becomes the predominate mythology in human culture

    Anyways, everyone knows Tolkien just translated the Red Book of Westmarch and claimed it as his own!

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