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Thread: Read that again?

  1. #3331
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    Maybe a quarter were shut down by the attack and the rest ran out from panic-buying?
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  2. #3332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    Maybe a quarter were shut down by the attack and the rest ran out from panic-buying?
    That makes sense - but not as written.

  3. #3333
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    Either the reporter got this girl’s invention very wrong, or the “BT Young Pioneer Award” judges have forgotten the laws of thermodynamics.

    [The]car would take the kinetic energy made by driving the car to power it, effectively ending fears of running out of juice during a journey.


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  4. #3334
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    Well, they took a shortcut in the explanation. The kinetic energy of the car, while in motion, forces air through a wind turbine to charge the batteries.

    That said, i wonder how much charge the turbines can produce and is it enough to offset the constant power drain? I’d be surprised if that was so.

  5. #3335
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    Well, it also says:

    The Chatham school girl, from St Thomas More Catholic Primary School on Bleakwood Road, submitted her concept for a commercial road car powered by wind turbine technology.

    The turbines would be placed under the grill and the wheels, producing energy which would keep the car running without having to stop and charge like a standard electric car.

    I don’t understand what is meant by having turbines placed under the wheels, and why would you place wind turbines behind a grill that would block some of the wind?

    However, I suppose if you happened to have a strong enough wind and large enough wind turbines, you could end up with more power than you use with favorable winds, but I can’t imagine it would be a practical vehicle. Yes, it doesn’t make much sense. She’s 11 years old, and I do suspect you’re right that she’s thinking of a perpetual motion machine and doesn’t understand why it won’t work, but I’d need to see a good description to understand exactly what she is proposing.

    She is a finalist for a 10,000 pound prize. My guess is she won’t win, but hopefully the judges understand physics.

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  6. #3336
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlaugh View Post
    Well, they took a shortcut in the explanation. The kinetic energy of the car, while in motion, forces air through a wind turbine to charge the batteries.

    That said, i wonder how much charge the turbines can produce and is it enough to offset the constant power drain? I’d be surprised if that was so.
    Maybe it would get enough power to keep going driving through a hurricane.

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." — Abraham Lincoln

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  7. #3337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    Well, it also says:
    The Chatham school girl, from St Thomas More Catholic Primary School on Bleakwood Road, submitted her concept for a commercial road car powered by wind turbine technology.

    The turbines would be placed under the grill and the wheels, producing energy which would keep the car running without having to stop and charge like a standard electric car.

    I don’t understand what is meant by having turbines placed under the wheels, and why would you place wind turbines behind a grill that would block some of the wind?

    However, I suppose if you happened to have a strong enough wind and large enough wind turbines, you could end up with more power than you use with favorable winds, but I can’t imagine it would be a practical vehicle. Yes, it doesn’t make much sense. She’s 11 years old, and I do suspect you’re right that she’s thinking of a perpetual motion machine and doesn’t understand why it won’t work, but I’d need to see a good description to understand exactly what she is proposing.

    She is a finalist for a 10,000 pound prize. My guess is she won’t win, but hopefully the judges understand physics.
    There is a guy who made a car powered by the wind and won a bet. The car has a large prop which delivers power to the wheels. The concept is the each blade on the prop is a wing, so it can go faster than the wind. Of course, it needs to tack like a boat or go in a straight line before the wind. Presumably it's top heavy, so turning is a bad idea. Also, it was never really designed to go "as fast as the wind", so it shimmies and shakes at 20-30 mph. There were canceled tests because the wind was much faster than that on those days.

    It really is a mystifying looking machine. First things first, it's appears to be much larger than a regular car, but then has a windmill like contraption on the top. Also, at first glance it appears as if the power is coming from the wheels to spin the prop.*

    I'm not exactly sure how this would be any better than a cart with a sail. It looks so Rube Goldberg.

    *EDIT - I've seen it described two different ways, so maybe I don't know how this thing is supposed to work.
    Last edited by Solfe; 2021-Jul-03 at 10:29 AM.
    Solfe

  8. #3338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    There is a guy who made a car powered by the wind and won a bet. The car has a large prop which delivers power to the wheels. The concept is the each blade on the prop is a wing, so it can go faster than the wind. Of course, it needs to tack like a boat or go in a straight line …..
    Wrong , if built right, such a car can drive into the wind, as can a boat. The friction of the roads wheels allows a torque to the axles to go forwards. In a boat the dense water reaction at a prop does the same. Still not very useful but the principle is important.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  9. #3339
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    Just a note on the story - a wind powered land vehicle can certainly work, it just isn’t very practical. But the description of the girl’s idea strongly suggested a perpetual motion machine. However, the description wasn’t very good and from the reporter, not the girl, so something important might be missing. If I were judging I would want to see her presentation first hand. My guess is it is very much like some of the perpetual motion machines I came up with as a kid. Learning why they couldn’t work was an important lesson. Sadly, a lot of people (and I think this includes that reporter) never learn it, hence the popularity of “over unity” energy machine scams. If it does come down to a perpetual motion machine, she never should have been a finalist, rather she should have gotten an explanation of the issue from the judges or her teacher.

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." — Abraham Lincoln

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  10. #3340
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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    Wrong , if built right, such a car can drive into the wind, as can a boat. The friction of the roads wheels allows a torque to the axles to go forwards. In a boat the dense water reaction at a prop does the same. Still not very useful but the principle is important.
    I've been watching the series of videos and I have no idea what is happening. Somehow, the prop makes it move forward or the wheels moving on the ground make it move forwards or it's just a gust of wind. In the video I shared, I am pretty sure they invoked all three probably in the worst and most contradictory way.

    Anyway, it's a video thing and some people exchanged money over it. Those are the main facts.
    Solfe

  11. #3341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    Just a note on the story - a wind powered land vehicle can certainly work, it just isn’t very practical. But the description of the girl’s idea strongly suggested a perpetual motion machine.
    She seems pretty clear that it's not a perpetual motion machine.
    A battery will be charged at home as usual but when the car is in motion the turbines will take over, producing electricity and powering the car. This will also increase the range of the car substantially and cheaply too! This is also much better for the environment because the cars main source of energy is wind and wind is clean, renewable and completely free .
    My bold. Her text is otherwise too unclear to figure out exactly what she's thinking of.

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  12. #3342
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    Ah, that’s better, but that wasn’t in the article I read. This was a problematic bit in the article:

    But Annabelle's concept car would take the kinetic energy made by driving the car to power it, effectively ending fears of running out of juice during a journey.

    However it isn’t clear if she originally said that or if that was the reporter’s interpretation.

    By her description, if there was enough wind, turbines could recharge the car, but there wouldn’t be, especially given the poor locations she’s putting them, and if they are to be run while the car is going down the road it will just add extra drag if the wind isn’t favorable.

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  13. #3343
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    Looking at her description more, it actually still does sound like a perpetual motion machine to me. I would want to know where she thinks the wind is coming from, because it sounds like she is thinking of the wind the car generates itself by pushing through air, not wind it would still encounter if sitting still.

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." — Abraham Lincoln

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  14. #3344
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    That point about self generated wind and independent wind does cause a lot of confusion. The various mechanisms confuse too. If you can capture energy from an independent wind, and if you have a motor of some kind driving wheels then you can couple and drive in any direction. The speed against friction as work done will be less than the work done by the wind, but losses can be kept small. Scale matters so this idea can save energy on large ships.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  15. #3345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    There is a guy who made a car powered by the wind and won a bet. The car has a large prop which delivers power to the wheels. The concept is the each blade on the prop is a wing, so it can go faster than the wind. Of course, it needs to tack like a boat or go in a straight line before the wind. Presumably it's top heavy, so turning is a bad idea. Also, it was never really designed to go "as fast as the wind", so it shimmies and shakes at 20-30 mph. There were canceled tests because the wind was much faster than that on those days.

    It really is a mystifying looking machine. First things first, it's appears to be much larger than a regular car, but then has a windmill like contraption on the top. Also, at first glance it appears as if the power is coming from the wheels to spin the prop.*

    I'm not exactly sure how this would be any better than a cart with a sail. It looks so Rube Goldberg.

    *EDIT - I've seen it described two different ways, so maybe I don't know how this thing is supposed to work.
    I saw a video about that and my understanding was that the wheels drive the prop which cause the motion. But I'm still not clear, especially on how you get it started.
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

  16. #3346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
    I saw a video about that and my understanding was that the wheels drive the prop which cause the motion. But I'm still not clear, especially on how you get it started.
    Sit and wait for a breeze?
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  17. #3347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
    I saw a video about that and my understanding was that the wheels drive the prop which cause the motion. But I'm still not clear, especially on how you get it started.
    Just watched the you tube video about the blackbird demonstration vehicle and the 10000 dollar bet that the physics professor lost!
    The wheels are chain driven by the prop, so you can say the wheels drive the prop in no wind but the sails obviously accelerate the wheels.

    A simple sail would not work. The spin of the aerofoil blades is essential. But just like an Americas cup sail, the sails of the prop go faster than the wind because of the manipulated forces. The blackbird went nearly three times the speed of the tail wind still accelerating at the end of the run.

    Small models on a moving belt were successful too.

    The non intuitive part is forgetting the reaction force at the ground, that is part of the gearing accelerating the car. Of course it is always responsible for acceleration of any car. Plus the way a sail extracts momentum from the wind to produce torque.

    The apparent wind on a sail is a vector sum of the vehicle speed and the wind. By allowing the sail to rotate on an axis, at greater speed than the wind, or the vehicle, you achieve the goal of going downwind (or directly upwind) faster than the wind. Limited only by how big your prop can reasonably be,
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  18. #3348
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    From this article.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	big.png 
Views:	27 
Size:	14.2 KB 
ID:	26295

    I know Tokyo is big, but come on...
    As above, so below

  19. #3349
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    Ah, it must be the hidden underground Gigatokyo catacombs. Honestly, it makes me think it should be a plot item for some anime.

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." — Abraham Lincoln

    I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

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  20. #3350
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    Pilots? What pilots? We don't need no stinking pilots! At least not until the second-to-last paragraph. Leaves one to think that Branson and his fellow passengers flew Unity22 by themselves.

    https://www.npr.org/2021/07/11/10150...-on-virgin-gal.

    Richard Branson and a crew of three others grazed the edge of space on Sunday in a rocket built by the British billionaire's company, Virgin Galactic. The flight ushers in a new chapter in the world of aeronautics, with Virgin Galactic among a handful of ambitious and well-funded ventures racing to commercialize travel to space.

    Lifting off from Spaceport America in Las Cruces, N.M., — a commercial space flight center about 180 miles south of Albuquerque —Branson was among a crew of four "mission specialists" who reached speeds three times the speed of sound.

    As the mothership — manned by two pilots — approached more than 46,000 feet above Earth's surface, Virgin Galactic live streamed a video of vignettes about the vessel, interviews with NASA astronauts and other material hosted by late night comedian Stephen Colbert.

  21. #3351
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlaugh View Post
    Pilots? What pilots? We don't need no stinking pilots! At least not until the second-to-last paragraph. Leaves one to think that Branson and his fellow passengers flew Unity22 by themselves.

    https://www.npr.org/2021/07/11/10150...-on-virgin-gal.
    Well, they're just "the help".

    Funny thing is, the Virgin Galactic ship is the only one that HAS TO have a pilot. Most of their systems are manually operated, unlike SpaceX, SLS, or Blue Origins, which are essentially completely automated (some of them the pilot could do things, but they don't have to, unless things go wrong).
    At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

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  22. #3352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    Well, they're just "the help".
    Ironically, they will likely soon rack up records as the astronauts entering space the most times, at least if you accept the US 50 mile standard for where space starts (or if the Karman line is adjusted to 80 km, which is apparently being discussed). Soon, there will be people who can say they’ve been in space dozens, than later, hundreds of times.

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." — Abraham Lincoln

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  23. #3353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    Ironically, they will likely soon rack up records as the astronauts entering space the most times, at least if you accept the US 50 mile standard for where space starts (or if the Karman line is adjusted to 80 km, which is apparently being discussed). Soon, there will be people who can say they’ve been in space dozens, than later, hundreds of times.
    Once they reduce the Karman line to five foot six, I'll be in space too!
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  24. #3354
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    One of those ads for click-bait websites that show up in Facebook has some photos of Marina Sirtis (from STNG) and the headline "20 Years Later and She Still Seizes to Amaze Us". Is Ms. Sirtis grabbing things or is she having some serious neurological problems?
    At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

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  25. #3355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    One of those ads for click-bait websites that show up in Facebook has some photos of Marina Sirtis (from STNG) and the headline "20 Years Later and She Still Seizes to Amaze Us". Is Ms. Sirtis grabbing things or is she having some serious neurological problems?
    So if they meant ceases, isn't that an insult? "She ceases to amaze us."
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  26. #3356
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    Hey, those clickbait designers speak English better than I speak Russian! Which is probably their main language.
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

  27. #3357
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    It's funny that "still ceases to amaze me" is clearly wrong, but there are people (even English speakers) who say it, like even a congressman.

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  28. #3358
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    "Even a congressman"? As if they should know better?

  29. #3359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    It's funny that "still ceases to amaze me" is clearly wrong, but there are people (even English speakers) who say it, like even a congressman.
    It is a misused put down. To fail to amaze, is to say she is mediocre, and to cease to amaze is to stop being amazing. So you are right, she cannot still be ceasing, but she could be failing.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  30. #3360
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    I'm (re)reading Philip K. Dick's The Man In The High Castle at present, in the Penguin Classics edition.
    At the introduction of the character Frank Frink, the text reads:
    And Frank Frink was a Jew.
    His original name was Frank Frink.
    Oops. "Fink", I think.

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