View Poll Results: Could the atmosphere of Venus be changed?

Voters
124. You may not vote on this poll
  • No. Organic carbon falls into hot lower regions where it's liberated as CO2 again.

    19 15.32%
  • We know much more about Venus now, so there's a better series of ways to do it.

    31 25.00%
  • Even if it could work, Venus would revert back to a hellish world because…

    24 19.35%
  • Seeding the clouds must be preceded by lowering the temperature with a gigantic shade.

    34 27.42%
  • Wouldn't Venus need a moon as well as a new atmosphere?

    16 12.90%
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Thread: Making Venus livable

  1. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravens_cry View Post
    I already shared my idea of an energy cheap system and fairly simple for lifting material from the surface. Basically it's a parachute that becomes a balloon to rise back up in the atmosphere. And certain asteroids are cheaper from a delta-v perspective to get to from Venus, so that can also be a source of materials.
    I see a lot of this kind of thing being necessary for any extraterrestrial endeavours. Earth is like a big block super store with everything you need, while in space it'll be like going to a lot of little shops, something you need here and something else you need there.
    Something you should be aware of, if you haven't seen it in discussions already; the concept known as the Interplanetary Superhighway. It's pertinent to this thread in keeping with my contention that the solar system will need to be developed generally, and not just one piece at a time.

    If we can more-or-less easily get material from the surface of Venus up the floating aerostat positions, and then after processing, on to Venus orbit, it seems advisable to at least consider how to get such materials distributed even further in the system. Assuming that an orbiting Venus rotavator, or several, is spinning around Venus, the outgoing cargoes could be simply released at the appropriate time to be sent off to their respective destinations. It is at this point that the delicate and dynamic balance of LaGrange Points around most planets comes into play, and hence "the Interplanetary Superhighway", which may be used to further develop habitable locations around the solar system. It's worth a bit of study.

  2. 2014-Apr-27, 07:46 PM

  3. #632
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    Quote Originally Posted by NicknamedBob View Post
    Something you should be aware of, if you haven't seen it in discussions already; the concept known as the Interplanetary Superhighway. It's pertinent to this thread in keeping with my contention that the solar system will need to be developed generally, and not just one piece at a time.

    If we can more-or-less easily get material from the surface of Venus up the floating aerostat positions, and then after processing, on to Venus orbit, it seems advisable to at least consider how to get such materials distributed even further in the system. Assuming that an orbiting Venus rotavator, or several, is spinning around Venus, the outgoing cargoes could be simply released at the appropriate time to be sent off to their respective destinations. It is at this point that the delicate and dynamic balance of LaGrange Points around most planets comes into play, and hence "the Interplanetary Superhighway", which may be used to further develop habitable locations around the solar system. It's worth a bit of study.
    The IPSH takes thousands of years to navigate. Powered IP flight paths, even low-thrust solar sails, are much more useful on the human scale.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  4. #633
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    That sounds like a very similar idea to the Interplanetary Transport Network. In fact, the Interplanetary Super Highway is mentioned in the article.

  5. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    The IPSH takes thousands of years to navigate. Powered IP flight paths, even low-thrust solar sails, are much more useful on the human scale.
    I wouldn't advise traversing the whole thing, or hitch-hiking along it.

    I'm thinking that a navigating robot, as I have heard is being developed, and some solar-sail input, could direct cargo shipments as needed rather automatically. Big blocks of dry ice, dropped into the Martian atmosphere every few months for a few dozen years might not be even noticeable, but dead-heading anywhere won't be necessary.

  6. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravens_cry View Post
    Yeah, I've suggested that idea on this thread in some detail. How well do carbon fibres stand up to the Venusian acids? If they do, the atmosphere itself could provide a building material.
    Also what can be done with aliphatic polycarbonate? I know it can be made from CO2 and should be usable at high altitudes. Perhaps it could be made resistant to acids or is it already? Then we'd have two plastics to play with.

  7. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by FarmMarsNow View Post
    Also what can be done with aliphatic polycarbonate? I know it can be made from CO2 and should be usable at high altitudes. Perhaps it could be made resistant to acids or is it already? Then we'd have two plastics to play with.
    At first glance, I'm a little suspicious of that material. It looks as though it were designed to be biodegradable.

    Whatever building material we might manage to scrape together, we'll want to protect it from the atmosphere. That may simply mean wrapping it before and during assembly.

    Ideally, an effective "dry-dock" for large structures could be made by filling a space with either air or nitrogen, making the trusses and space-frames to be linked together, and then for the final assembling simply flooding the area with carbon dioxide. If the components are engineered properly, they may be very light or float in that atmosphere.

    While we're on the subject, though, it seems that carbon and nitrogen, plentiful in Venus atmosphere, make interesting compounds. Some researchers are substituting nitrogen for the carbon atoms in buckyballs and other fullerenes. Carbon nitride may become an export item.

    There's no doubt that eking an existence in the skies of Venus will be an engineering challenge, but it may also be a chemical engineering challenge!

  8. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by NicknamedBob
    At first glance, I'm a little suspicious of that material. It looks as though it were designed to be biodegradable.
    Obviously I'd need someone who does research in macromolecules to give a definitive answer, but there are processes out there that claim to use aliphatic polycarbonate as a beginning and end with a thermosetting plastic or end with something less biodegradable. I wondered about it, because water isn't very concentrated at all on Venus and because perhaps by adding a few other monomers you could get something resistant to sulfuric acid. It might not make for a permanent plastic, but cheap and easy might be more servicable.

    Currently its being heavily researched because it is biodegradable. The interest is twofold: It comes from CO2, so it is thought it mightl help offset the CO2 released in production of plastics (energy intensive process), and it is biodegradable.

  9. #638
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    The lack of water on Venus cuts both ways. The sulfuric acid in the Venusian atmosphere is quite anhydrous, and will tend to yank water right out of other molecules containing hydrogen and oxygen. Look at sugar for a rather dramatic example. Polycarbonate may hold up better...what I found indicated it was attacked by concentrated acid, but I didn't find much detail. There are likely be other possibilities that would make more efficient use of the available materials than hydrocarbons, polycarbonate was just one that came to mind.

    On the other hand, a lot of chemical reactions progress slowly or not at all in the absence of water, so even materials that are incompatible with concentrated acid may be compatible with anhydrous acid. Short of those, there's still plenty of compatible materials. Sulfuric acid is an extremely widely used industrial chemical and has been produced and used for about two thousand years, it's not particularly difficult to work with.

    Another factor: it's quite easy to neutralize sulfuric acid. I don't know if I would trust a coating on a structural element exposed to the atmosphere, but an internal atmosphere could be kept clean of sulfuric acid without much trouble.

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