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Thread: Stretching the Laws of Physics: Cataclysmic Variables

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    Stretching the Laws of Physics: Cataclysmic Variables

    Hey all. I'm space cadet's husband and this is my first post. I dabble in science fiction concepts and settings from time to time, and like to do my homework to make the settings as feasible as possible. Incidentally, if this thread is in the wrong forum, please feel free to move it.

    Any way, here goes...

    So let's say there exists a binary system where a white dwarf draws off material from the larger in an accretion disk. Let's also say that an earth-sized planet orbits these stars.

    1. Is it in any way conceivable that a binary system like this could have recurrent novae on the scale of months instead of decades?

    2. Is it possible for the planet to survive such frequent discharges? Why isn't it irreparably destroyed?

    3. What would be necessary for this planet to be able to sustain life, astronomically speaking (AU distance, year length, etc.)?

    4. Given that the planet survives, what kind of resources are available on this planet?

    Thank you for your time and I look forward to your responses!
    Last edited by Mr. Space Cadet; 2007-Jul-23 at 03:58 PM.

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    A few ideas I've had so far (not in any particular order):

    1. Given that the planet survives, it's likely that the atmosphere would be stripped away by the nova impact. In order for any sort of ecosystem to thrive in such an environment that would have to be replenished. Could this be done with pockets of gas buried deep under the surface that release a new atmosphere until pressure is equalized?

    2. Life forms would also have to seek shelter under the surface, scurrying for cracks and fissures in order to avoid being flash-fried. However, I'd like there to be a reason for the life on this planet to be impelled back to the surface, like crabs at tide pools, picking out food that has been washed up to the surface. When the "nova tide" is high everything would go below, possibly into a liquid environment like underground oceans and lakes. When the tide is low everything emerges, taking advantage of whatever "washes up." (Any suggestions on what that might be?)

    3. The surface itself would likely be scoured and polished, blasted by frequent "nova tides." It would take on the smooth and fluid characteristics of obsidian, and possibly even glass, letting light pass to the aforementioned underground ecosystem. However, any cracks and fissures would likely be melted closed by novae, and would have to somehow reopen to allow transit between the two worlds. What would the time frame on this be? How long would it take for the surface world to be safe again, and what could catalyze the reopening of these cracks?

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    There's potential for a good SF story here. A civilization struggles to stay alive against terrible odds.

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    I agree! Any suggestions on elements you see affecting this planet I might be missing? Do you see the possibility for native creatures to live here for colonists to interact with?

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    I'm not sure how accurate the theory about how nova is with respect to "blowing off a planet's atmosphere." It's more likely that it's first atmosphere would be replaced by the gases of subsequent nova events. While subsequent atmospheres would be considerably less dense than is Earth's current atmosphere given Earth's gravity, an atmosphere of nova gases would remain.

    This would be enhanced by the discharge from rocks heated to vaporization, and the underground release of gases in response to the nova event.

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    There's also the sociological impacts to consider from such an environment. Here's my impressions:

    1.) It would not be a very fruitful niche. Population would be low, with most of the creatures' work time spent on survival necessities. Barring that, perhaps they 'hibernate' during the nova storms.

    2.) In a stressful, survivalistic environemtn, crime would be very low, but the punishments would be harsh, much like the early colonists to the United States. "Work to Eat" mentality, if you would.

    3.) The arts would suffer or be non-existant; why spend time to decorate pottery or compose music when you have to spend all of your waking time making sure your immediate family-equivalent group are well fed and protected?

    4.) Factions. I'd imagine that there would be small groups, cities if you would, that would compete for the best resources. Wars, scuffles, scheming, and the like.

    5.) Subsurface living conditions. I'd imagine that life would evolve sightless or nearly so; Why develop eyes to percieve light that would very well kill them? Other senses would benefit from the leftover brainpower; Touch (touch sensitive hairs like moles?), smell? Hearing would be interesting, now that I think about it. Like have them put thier vocal organ on the bare rock, and "growl" into the stone. Extremely low frequencies carry for a very long distance in that kind of medium. Hearing bones in the feet or equivalent locomotive appendages would facilitate this kind of communication.

    Just a couple from the top of my head.

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    Hrm. There you go. Your colonists, sheathed in thier protective domes on the surface, detect a series of anomalous ELF vibrations under the rock immediately after the dangerous period of a nova flare. Each source turns out to be a native colony announcing to each other that it's safe to go about thier business.

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    I'm moving this to Q&A from ATM. You are looking for mainstream answers to a mildly plausible situation... not proposing something that would be new physics, or a very different interpretation of known physics to explain something.
    Forming opinions as we speak

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    Concerning your question, I don't know about the recurring every few months part, as there are no known examples of this. That is not to say no, just that it seems unlikely. The mass that would have to be transferred to the white dwarf would need to be very high. The White dwarf might need to be orbiting deep inside its partner.

    Concerning life on a planet orbiting these stars (it would have to be orbiting both), that would be possible if the life were something unfamiliar to us in the atmosphere of a Jupiter-sized (or even more massive) planet. A smaller planet would have its atmosphere boiled away or stripped away by the explosions.

    It is also likely that this system wouldn't be around long as it will turn into a type 1a supernova in a finite amount of time. That would make getting life to a stable state after the first Nova pretty difficult.
    Forming opinions as we speak

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    Great ideas! Now let me see if I understand everything okay...

    mugaliens: It's more likely that it's first atmosphere would be replaced by the gases of subsequent nova events.
    antoniseb: A smaller planet would have its atmosphere boiled away or stripped away by the explosions.
    Interesting... So is the discharge of material from a nova forceful enough to strip off/boil away the atmosphere? Is there some happy medium we can find to reconcile these two quotes, like a nova that isn't so hot? And what kind of gasses are commonly found in a nova cloud?

    1.) It would not be a very fruitful niche. Population would be low, with most of the creatures' work time spent on survival necessities. Barring that, perhaps they 'hibernate' during the nova storms.
    Well, native life on the planet would be primitive. The most advanced creatures I plan on will be crustaceans that can sort of hook into the nervous systems of dead creatures and use these commandeered bodies sort of like how a hermit crab has a shell. Everything else would be creatures that have enough senses to take shelter before a "nova tide" (and possibly for hibernation too) but enough reason to come back out to the surface once the coast is clear.

    Mister Earl: 2.) In a stressful, survivalistic environemtn, crime would be very low, but the punishments would be harsh, much like the early colonists to the United States. "Work to Eat" mentality, if you would.

    3.) The arts would suffer or be non-existant; why spend time to decorate pottery or compose music when you have to spend all of your waking time making sure your immediate family-equivalent group are well fed and protected?

    4.) Factions. I'd imagine that there would be small groups, cities if you would, that would compete for the best resources. Wars, scuffles, scheming, and the like.
    Well, at the time of this story there's only one colony. It is rather isolated, but the greater society they come from is rather advanced, so they're not totally cut off. Colonists are working in some sort of resource extraction, so transport vessels are coming and going. Art and other items that can contribute to quality of life can be imported.

    I like the ideas about rival factions, however. I will keep that in mind for future stories, after the colony has grown and divided some.

    Mister Earl: Hearing would be interesting, now that I think about it. Like have them put thier vocal organ on the bare rock, and "growl" into the stone. Extremely low frequencies carry for a very long distance in that kind of medium. Hearing bones in the feet or equivalent locomotive appendages would facilitate this kind of communication.
    A good point. I'd probably go with hearing. The idea of sending messages through the ground, much like it's believed that elephants do, would certainly work. Creatures could also develop echolocation, like bats and dolphins. Considering that I'm thinking the underground environment would consist of large aquafers, cave networks, and even underground seas, this might be the best sense to augment with the lost sight.

    However, wouldn't the creatures need something to warn them of imminent danger from a nova? Would there be an increase in radiation they could sense, perhaps not with conventional eyes, but a heat sensor of some kind? Or am I in left field with that?

    It is also likely that this system wouldn't be around long as it will turn into a type 1a supernova in a finite amount of time. That would make getting life to a stable state after the first Nova pretty difficult.
    How finite are we talking about?

    antoniseb" I'm moving this to Q&A from ATM.
    Thanks! I had a feeling I was in the wrong place.

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    Quote:
    mugaliens: It's more likely that it's first atmosphere would be replaced by the gases of subsequent nova events.
    Quote:
    antoniseb: A smaller planet would have its atmosphere boiled away or stripped away by the explosions.
    Interesting... So is the discharge of material from a nova forceful enough to strip off/boil away the atmosphere? Is there some happy medium we can find to reconcile these two quotes, like a nova that isn't so hot? And what kind of gasses are commonly found in a nova cloud?
    mugaliens is a smart guy, but he's wrong about this one. The nova would create a huge amount of heat, and the atoms making the atmosphere of a normal planet would escape and be driven away by the nova wind. Nothing blowing away from a nova would be sufficiently influenced by the planet's gravity to add to the atmosphere.

    How finite are we talking about?
    Depends on:
    - What was the mass of the white dwarf to start with
    - How fast is the mass piling up between these outbursts

    I could be that we are talking about less than a decade, it could be tens or hundreds of centuries. We really don't know enough to narrow it down more, given the limited details you've given us.
    Forming opinions as we speak

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    The nova would create a huge amount of heat, and the atoms making the atmosphere of a normal planet would escape and be driven away by the nova wind.
    So is it possible for the atmosphere to be replenished by underground gas pockets, like I mentioned earlier?

    Depends on:
    - What was the mass of the white dwarf to start with
    - How fast is the mass piling up between these outbursts
    Well, I guess I'm trying to find the window where the system will last long enough for life to develop on this planet, but that novas would be a relatively commonplace occurrence in the lives of the colonists. So in answer to your two factors:

    - Big/small enough to last long enough for life to develop
    - Short enough that novas are common, but not so short that the atmosphere doesn't have time to replenish or the star goes supernova in a few decades.

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    Cool Idea (Hot Idea? Radioactive Idea?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Space Cadet View Post
    I agree! Any suggestions on elements you see affecting this planet I might be missing? Do you see the possibility for native creatures to live here for colonists to interact with?
    How much radiation and how penetrating? The cataclysmic variable is a thermonuclear explosion across, I think, the entire surface of the star. Does it start in one spot and propagate? Or does the whole thing go at once? Gee, we're only going to need an H-bomb nuclear physicist to answer these questions, and that's one grade up from rocket scientist.

    Since there's no confinement other than gravitational, I think there will be a lot of material blown into space. Hydrogen, helium, lithium(?), maybe some of the dwarf.

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    How much radiation and how penetrating?
    Enough that the natives would want to go underground until it subsides.

    Does it start in one spot and propagate? Or does the whole thing go at once?
    Whatever would be more plausible for what I need (plus whatever might look the coolest, maybe it varies from time to time?).

    Gee, we're only going to need an H-bomb nuclear physicist to answer these questions, and that's one grade up from rocket scientist.
    Well, my friend's a rocket scientist, and I'd bet you guys know more about this kind of thing than him...

    Hydrogen, helium, lithium(?),
    Any possibilities for harvesting these elements?

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    Perhaps if the Planet did not rotate on it's own axis, having only one sunny side of the planet always facing the worst of the blast, while the dark side might offer slightly better protection having the mass of the planet to shield them if the colony is on the planets surface.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Space Cadet View Post

    Any possibilities for harvesting these elements?

    I don't know if underground is enough. The planet is going to be stripped of its atmosphere, and the surface may be ablated.

    But it's still a neat idea.

    Visiting Earthlings will have to go through an expanding sphere of ejecta from the last cataclysm in approaching the system. Too bad if the ship should be damaged and they should be stuck on the planet for a while . . .

    O.K., start writing. It's going to be quite a job to collect out of the stellar wind the materials needed to fix the ship. And those dilithium crystals are hard to grow.
    Last edited by antoniseb; 2007-Jul-25 at 04:52 PM. Reason: clarity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Space Cadet View Post
    Hey all. I'm space cadet's husband and this is my first post.
    Space Cadet got married? This is bad, bad news for BAUT dudes.

    Oh, well. I guess congratulations are in order for both Cadets.
    Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

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    It's your fault, Cougar!

    And thanks for everyone's ideas and suggestions. I'm going to start working on the story soon, and I might come back for some more help on this from time to time, so feel free to keep adding ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Space Cadet View Post
    It's your fault, Cougar!
    Glad to hear it!

    I trust you've studied the mechanism, etc. of novae. This little blurb from Wiki might be helpful....

    Recurrent novae like RS Ophiuchi (those with periods on the order of decades) are rare. Astronomers theorize however that most, if not all, novae are recurrent, albeit on time scales ranging from 1,000 to 100,000 years. The recurrence interval for a nova is less dependent on the white dwarf's accretion rate than on its mass; with their powerful gravity, massive white dwarfs require less accretion to fuel an outburst than lower-mass ones. Consequently, the interval is shorter for high-mass white dwarfs.

    On another matter, I'm not sure how likely - and at what distance - planets are going to be orbiting the center of mass of a binary star system.
    Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

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    Huggy-muggy or arm's length

    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar View Post

    On another matter, I'm not sure how likely - and at what distance - planets are going to be orbiting the center of mass of a binary star system.
    I've seen an analysis of this, maybe in S&T. Essentially, in close to either star or way out from the pair works. The idea is to keep the three body interactions from pitching the planets out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Mendenhall View Post
    O.K., start writing. It's going to be quite a job to collect out of the stellar wind the materials needed to fix the ship. And those dilithium crystals are hard to grow.
    As far as siphoning mass from stellar ejecta, I imagine you could set up a kind of magnetic funnel to accumulate mass. Maybe even a very sophisticated system that used the different magnetic attraction levels of different elements to sort them. Kind of like a refinery "Cracker".

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    Quote Originally Posted by antoniseb View Post
    mugaliens is a smart guy, but he's wrong about this one. The nova would create a huge amount of heat, and the atoms making the atmosphere of a normal planet would escape and be driven away by the nova wind. Nothing blowing away from a nova would be sufficiently influenced by the planet's gravity to add to the atmosphere.
    Thanks, antoniseb, but I usually feel a bit dwarfed by some of you folks!

    Since the gas produced by some nova actually condenses into stars, is it unreasonable to assume that the same gas would be present in sufficient quantities to be captured by the planet?

    Now that I think it through, however, it's not gas that's expelled by a nova, but plasma and tons of radiation. The plasma is dense and hot enough alone to heat a planet's atmosphere to the point where it expels itself, and to add to that, the plasma is moving at a sizeable fraction of c, enough to blow off the atmosphere through sheer inertia alone. Even if the planet simply received the radiation, it's enough to heat the planet's atmosphere to the point where it leaves, too.

    So any one of three ways, and you're right, antoniseb, the planet's atmosphere is toast.

    As for my previous condensing gas theory, I now recall the stars usually form at some distance from the original nova, perhaps light-years. Anything within the orbit of Pluto would be toast and soon totally airless - at least with the original atmosphere.

    The immense heat would cause rock to melt, then vaporize, which would add gases back to the atmosphere after the supernova event. However, it's likely that a planet like Earth would be reduced to a waterless, molten globe with a caustic atmosphere of vaporized rock.

    Not exactly cozy, I'm afraid.

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    To give you some numbers to ponder here, mugs, it's not uncommon for CVs to increase in brightness by something like five magnitudes, which is around 100 times the energy output. A 50-100-fold increase in luminosity would do a little harm to any orbiting planets, I would think.

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    The white dwarfs that we know about are typically one to two solar mass, but a 1/10 th solar mass is likely possible, perhaps numerous in other galaxies even if none are within 10,000 light years in our galaxy. The companion "star" might be a brown dwarf or class m star, so the length of a year can be quite short = months instead of years. The annual nova can also be puny, I think. Neil

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    Quote Originally Posted by neilzero View Post
    The white dwarfs that we know about are typically one to two solar mass, but a 1/10 th solar mass is likely possible, perhaps numerous in other galaxies even if none are within 10,000 light years in our galaxy. The companion "star" might be a brown dwarf or class m star, so the length of a year can be quite short = months instead of years. The annual nova can also be puny, I think. Neil
    A White Dwarf that size would be made of Helium, not Carbon and Oxygen. The progenitor would have to be a K or M star (and much smaller than a solar mass), so the companion would *have* to be an M star or a BD. That situation won't work, though. It can't produce a cataclysmic variable. The two stars can't be close enough. The companion would be less than about 0.5 solar masses, and so be less that 0.5 solar radii, but a star of that size doesn't burn helium and doesn't expand once it leaves the main sequence. There's really no way to get the companion to overfill it's roche lobe. That's not even counting how much material you'd need to build up to thermonuclear pressures on the surface of 0.1 solar mass WD.
    Good try, neil, but it's completely implausible.

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    If the frequency of outbursts is important in the plot, you might consider situating the world around a dwarf nova. These are red dwarf/white dwarf accreting pairs, whose outbursts are much more frequent and rather less dramatic (days to decades recurrence, factors 6-100 in luminosity). The longer the period the bigger the oubursts, sort of like geysers. The stars have a short mutual orbital period, again like classical novae (a few hours).

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    The whole settlers coming to a planet which has frequent extinction cycles due to some astrophysical phenomenon thing kinda reminded me of Anne MacCaffrey's dragons of ...*(slight pause so as not to use the name of a place in Australia)*... Pern books. Sounds interesting.

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    Hey, thanks everybody! There's a lot of interesting dialog going on here! I've been revisiting the ideas recently, and this thread has really helped.

    So, my ideal situation for this setting would be that the planet orbits the two stars in such away that with each "nova tide" after the planet's atmosphere is scoured (and possibly completely blasted away), underground deposits (gas from caves? aquifers? crystalized air?) evaporate and escape to replace the lost or contaminated air. How long might this feasibly take to bring the atmosphere back to something breathable?

    Also, how fast does the shockwave of the nova approach? Given that the planet is 1 AU away from the nova, the speed of the light from the explosion would get there in 8 minutes, but what about the blast itself? How much warning would these guys conceivably have to take shelter?

    Another concept I'm struggling with is what are the humans actually doing there? They're harvesting elements and materials produced from these novae, but why this way? I mean, if they're just in it for the hydrogen, there are surely better ways to go about harvesting hydrogen than living in the wake of a nova and sifting through the resulting particles. So are there some sort of special properties the particles from a nova blast might exhibit to make it worth these earthlings' time? X-rays? Loosened elements not otherwise readily available in the galaxy? Ideas?

    Again, thanks everybody with all of your ideas and suggestions so far!

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    1. Is it in any way conceivable that a binary system like this could have recurrent novae on the scale of months instead of decades?

    *Though I don't think we've found any classical novae (as opposed to dwarf novae, etc.) recurrent on the scale of months, I don't see why not.

    2. Is it possible for the planet to survive such frequent discharges? Why isn't it irreparably destroyed?

    *Well, if by "survive", you mean not getting vaporized, and if we're talking the distance of the habitable zone around the stars when not in outburst, then a definite yes. The planet would be completely uninhabitable, though.

    3. What would be necessary for this planet to be able to sustain life, astronomically speaking (AU distance, year length, etc.)?

    *Unfortunately, you're in a bind here, for several reasons.

    1a.)Let's assume that the primary is a regular G-dwarf, identical in spectral type, mass, and temperature to the Sun. Neglecting input from the WD, the habitable zone would still be ~1 AU. However, the outbursts would increase the total luminosity by tens of thousands of times, frying any planet in said habitable zone. Move the planet farther out, though, and it becomes a frozen iceball save for the times when the star is outburst, which would only give a window of a few weeks or months for "pleasant" temperatures before things froze up again.

    2a.)Earlier, I neglected the input from the WD. In reality though, one couldn't do that, because the accretion disk itself would be a rich source of radiation even when not in outburst, again zapping the habitable zone.

    3a.) Finally, any WD comes from a progenitor that was a red giant, one far brighter than the resultant WD *and* its main sequence companion. In short, even if your planet is in the current habitable zone of the binary, that wouldn't have been the habitable zone when the WD was a red giant thousands of times brighter than the Sun, or even when the companion was on the main sequence.

    4. Given that the planet survives, what kind of resources are available on this planet?

    *If the planet is not in a perpetually semi-molten state, I'm guessing there would probably be a few real interesting compounds and minerals thrown off during outbursts and the WD's red giant stage, perhaps some that couldn't exist on Earth today. I'm really iffy in that area, though, so I can't speculate further.

    In any event, I pretty much agree with NGC's contention that the story would be better set around a less violent dwarf nova.

    Hope this helps, and best of luck!
    Last edited by Romanus; 2007-Dec-25 at 04:17 PM. Reason: Corrections.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Space Cadet View Post
    So, my ideal situation for this setting would be that the planet orbits the two stars in such away that with each "nova tide" after the planet's atmosphere is scoured (and possibly completely blasted away), underground deposits (gas from caves? aquifers? crystalized air?) evaporate and escape to replace the lost or contaminated air. How long might this feasibly take to bring the atmosphere back to something breathable?

    Also, how fast does the shockwave of the nova approach? Given that the planet is 1 AU away from the nova, the speed of the light from the explosion would get there in 8 minutes, but what about the blast itself? How much warning would these guys conceivably have to take shelter?
    1.) Any planet that could replenish a breathable atmosphere in a matter of months would probably be both very volatile-rich and very massive. You might want to increase the outburst interval, or make the outbursts less violent.

    2.) That depends on the energy of the outburst: anywhere from a few hundred kilometers per second to thousands of kilometers per second. At 1 AU, we're talking anywhere from four to five days to a half day.

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