The death of ATM (Against the Mainstream)

[Moose]

I suspect Moose has different page-size than you or I. The actual post number in the link Moose provided (Permalink doesn't work) is 1016720 and is likely this article.

I already knew about the permalinks, but I thought I was good with the advanced search engine by post links. So noted. Next time I'll snap the pointer fully before posting a link. Yes, you're quite correct about which post I was indicating.

[01101001]

I already knew about the permalinks, but I thought I was good with the advanced search engine by post links. So noted.

That's cool. I haven't had a chance to bash stupid, brain-dead Permalinks (spit) lately, so I enjoyed it. It's the implementation at fault, not you -- or us.

[Moose]

It's the implementation at fault, not you -- or us.

I wasn't suggesting differently. *chuckle* I just hate getting blindsided by bugs or broken-by-design.

[HenrikOlsen]

Also, it seems like moving posts, which is needed as part of moderation, starts a monstrous background process to find all posts with references to the moved post so the references can be updated.
At least that's how I read the timing of when I get the out of memory errors.

In my opinion, the permalinks, as implemented, is a horrible mess that adds absolutely no value.

[Jerry]

After viewing the Steorn video, I was disappointed to discover the thread had been closed. There is no real debunking of the device; and this one of the things wrong with a thirty day limit. I know I can explain how the device works, why it is a fraud, and how I know that the authors know it is a fraud; (for a price, I could even solve it mathematically, but it is not trivial.)

Thirty days is not enough time for everyone who may be able to debunk a hypothesis to do it.

[antoniseb]

... I know I can explain how the device works, why it is a fraud, and how I know that the authors know it is a fraud; ...

If it matters to you, you can open a new thread with your new information. That thread will have thirty days. The thirty day limit is mostly to stop the circular argumentation we saw in some of the longer ATM threads, in which after a few months one side or the other 'forgot' convincing arguments from the other side. Genuinely new information is always welcome.

[Jerry]

No one should be surprised to see the period - the motion of a child on a swing - increase if you shorten the ropes while there is kinetic energy in the system. Likewise, when a skater pulls in their arms and/or legs in during a spin, the preservation of angular momentum increases the rate of rotation - just like the earth's trade winds.

What is not obvious in the 'Steorn top', is that angular momentum can be stored in the field about the small magnets on the sides of the rotor. Today's rare earth magnetics are very powerful. When the presenter imparts a spin on the rotor, as the small coils in the rotor rotate past the magnets , energy is stored in a magnetic field, just as it could be in a mechanical spring.

In the video, notice that the presenter only allows the top to spin for about 30 seconds. It is not difficult to design a bearing surface that will maintain a nearly constant rotation for this amount of time; with no perceptible loss of momentum. When the presenter stopped the motion in the auxillary magnets, they collapsed the potential field about the magnets, transfering more angular momentum to the top, spinning it faster.

The fact that the presenter restarted the top several times, until the auxillary magnets were rotating at a rate the presenter knew would store optimal field strength, and the fact that the presenter stopped the device before there was an obvious frictional loss of angular momentum, tells you that the presenter knew the device is fraudulent.

It is a clever trick, but when a device like this is used to con investors, it is just a con. There have been similar cons in the past, including a top-like device that actually coupled electromagnetically to power mains running in the walls of a building - you could stop the device by turning off the lights. I wondered if this is why the lighting in this demonstration was so poor: No evidence of ancillary electromagnetic coupling. In this case, none was needed: the energy was stored in the magnets about the rotating coils: a small, clever motor-generator.

[Kesh]

Which part of "start a new thread" did you not understand?

[Jerry]

I thought about it, and I really don't have any more to add - I don't have a lot of patience with con artists. What is silly is, I think Stoern could have marketed this as a rather fascinating little toy - a very worthy project for a HS science class.

My greater point is that the 30 day limit doesn't allow either a good attack or a good defense of an ATM concept, especially one involving predictions.

It is becoming obvious that astrophysics - as a science - is entering a chaotic rather than a 'precision' phase. This is neither good nor bad, it is just the nature of science when predicted behavior is not observed.

Confidence in the scientific method does not mean confidence in existing theories, in fact quite the opposite: The scientific method demands that we remain critical and skeptical of every theory. This is the aspect of science Carl Sagen skewed completely wrong, and the future will bare this out.