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Thread: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) News

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
    Wow - does this mean lots of BAUT members only check BAUT when they are at work? Hmmm
    Probably more that on July 4, there are lot of things like fireworks and town fairs in the US, so people will not be at home. I would assume that people check on Saturdays and Sundays at home.
    As above, so below

  2. #212
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    In regards to the numerous "what now" questions, doctor Dave Goldberg fervently hopes this latest announcement has at least one practical application:
    http://io9.com/5923170/stop-calling-it-the-god-particle
    The dog, the dog, he's at it again!

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    Probably more that on July 4, there are lot of things like fireworks and town fairs in the US
    And picnics, house parties, block parties . . . lots of things.

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." — Abraham Lincoln

    I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

    The Leif Ericson Cruiser

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnjrp View Post
    In regards to the numerous "what now" questions, doctor Dave Goldberg fervently hopes this latest announcement has at least one practical application:
    http://io9.com/5923170/stop-calling-it-the-god-particle
    Let's call it Weighty.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnjrp View Post
    In regards to the numerous "what now" questions, doctor Dave Goldberg fervently hopes this latest announcement has at least one practical application:
    http://io9.com/5923170/stop-calling-it-the-god-particle
    I can agree with that.

    This is why government, philanthropists or business should fund pure science. Marketing and appealing to pop-culture seems to never end well for physicists.
    Et tu BAUT? Quantum mutatus ab illo.

  6. #216
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    If somebody's still confused about that sigma 5, don't be:
    http://physicsbuzz.physicscentral.co...discovery.html
    The dog, the dog, he's at it again!

  7. #217
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    I have heard that the Higgs boson imparts inertial mass rather than gravitational mass. Does anyone understand the difference? Also, how does the Higgs Boson affect either and what is its relation to the graviton?

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnjrp View Post
    If somebody's still confused about that sigma 5, don't be:
    http://physicsbuzz.physicscentral.co...discovery.html
    Thanks. That was a nice primer on the bell curve.
    I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them. - Jimmy Hoffa

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by DancesWithFruitBats View Post
    I have heard that the Higgs boson imparts inertial mass rather than gravitational mass. Does anyone understand the difference? Also, how does the Higgs Boson affect either and what is its relation to the graviton?
    Inertial mass is the m in the equation F = ma (Newtonian approximation). Gravitational mass is the m and M in the equation F = GmM/r^2 (Newtonian approximation).

    We are not aware of any inherent reason why a massive object's resistance to motion under application of a force (of any variety), ie its inertial mass, should be the exactly proportional to the force on it due to gravity, implying its gravitational "mass" is the same. So whatever it is that (so far as we can tell) makes the inertial and gravitational masses the same, we do not know.

    Since the Higgs mechanism is nothing to do, so far as we know, with gravity, it makes sense to say that the Higgs mechanism determines the inertial mass rather than the gravitational mass. But since they are the same, so far as we can tell, in practice it would appear to determine both.

    Gravitons, if they exist, and the Higgs particle are both bosons. That is about as much as we can say about their similarity at the moment. People have been doing plenty of work on gravity on the assumption that the Higgs boson exists, so proving it does exist doesn't take us much further in the investigation of gravity. Maybe some detailed investigation of the Higgs boson's properties will tell us something we don't know.

  10. #220
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    The Higgs particle makes rest masses for most of the other Standard-Model particles. It has nothing to do with inertial vs. gravitational mass.

    It makes them massive by interacting with them while always being present, as it were. Without the Higgs particle, all the other Standard-Model particles would be massless. With the Higgs partlcle, only two of them are massless, and that's because of their zero interaction with the Higgs particle: the photon and the gluon.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
    The Higgs particle makes rest masses for most of the other Standard-Model particles. It has nothing to do with inertial vs. gravitational mass.

    It makes them massive by interacting with them while always being present, as it were. Without the Higgs particle, all the other Standard-Model particles would be massless. With the Higgs partlcle, only two of them are massless, and that's because of their zero interaction with the Higgs particle: the photon and the gluon.
    Ipetrich. Actually there are three masses. The third is the mass that reacts with the ubiquitous neutrino sea, via the three branches of the weak currents, the W+, the W-, and the Z0. The last one, the Z0, can be any particle/antiparticle pair, and at energies less than 1.022 Gev/c2, can only be either a massless photon/anti-photon or a neutrino/antineutrino pair. The latter is Gamow's defined graviton from his text "Gravity"...a Project Physics Reader from the sixties.
    I used it years ago to define a trinity of equivalence, and patched it into H.Georgi's SU[5] symmetry (Sci Am. 1981) to make a simple GUT. It successfully predicted the coincidences seen at the Rome/Maryland gravitational wave detectors and the IMB, Baksan, Mont Blanc, and Kamiokande neutrino detectors @ sigma 3.2 during SN1987a and reported @ Neutrino 88 @ Tufts University by Guido Pizella (published in Il Nuovo Cimento C).
    It is not a surprise that a resonance is seen @ ~ 125.99 Gev/c2, as two energetic Z's....one a W+/W- pair can interract with a second Z that is splitting such that the final transient state has a mass of ~125.99 as was first noted by Lubos Motl on his blog.

    pete


    SEE:http://cupp.oulu.fi/neutrino/nd-cross.html

    SEE:http://motls.blogspot.com/2012/07/hi...n-100.html?m=1

    SEE:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubo%C5%A1_Motl
    Last edited by trinitree88; 2012-Jul-17 at 03:51 PM. Reason: links

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by trinitree88 View Post
    Ipetrich. Actually there are three masses. The third is the mass that reacts with the ubiquitous neutrino sea, via the three branches of the weak currents, the W+, the W-, and the Z0. The last one, the Z0, can be any particle/antiparticle pair, and at energies less than 1.022 Gev/c2, can only be either a massless photon/anti-photon or a neutrino/antineutrino pair. The latter is Gamow's defined graviton from his text "Gravity"...a Project Physics Reader from the sixties.
    That seems to me totally mixed up. I'd recommend Wikipedia as a source, except that it's rather confused. So I'm using this instead:


    CERN mug summarizes Standard Model, but is off by a factor of 2

    Here is what each term means:
    • Gauge-particle kinetic energy and self-interaction.
    • Elementary-fermion kinetic energy and gauge-particle interaction.
    • "Hermitian conjugate", a sort of mirror image. This one is redundant, and makes the aforementioned factor-of-2 error.
    • Elementary-fermion-Higgs-particle interactions.
    • "Hermitian conjugate" again, but a necessary one this time.
    • Higgs-particle kinetic energy and gauge-particle interaction.
    • Higgs-particle potential energy.

    All the "particles" here are quantized fields.

    D = gradient with gauge-particle interaction
    psi = elementary fermion
    phi = Higgs particle
    y's = interaction strengths
    V = potential

    The ultimate origin of Standard-Model-particle mass is the Higgs potential term. It makes the lowest-energy value of phi nonzero, and its continual presence then gives masses to the elementary fermions and some of the gauge particles.

  13. #223
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    The BBC is reporting that the Atlas team is claiming 5.9 sigma:

    link

    The article says they are sure they found a particle, but still have to confirm that it is the particle they were expecting.
    I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them. - Jimmy Hoffa

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extravoice View Post
    The BBC is reporting that the Atlas team is claiming 5.9 sigma:

    link

    The article says they are sure they found a particle, but still have to confirm that it is the particle they were expecting.
    So, if it's not the boson, then it must be closely related right... Some sort of Boson's Mate? ;-)
    Et tu BAUT? Quantum mutatus ab illo.

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ara Pacis View Post
    So, if it's not the boson, then it must be closely related right... Some sort of Boson's Mate? ;-)
    I didn't know that the CQ rules allowed for such leeward jokes.
    I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them. - Jimmy Hoffa

  16. #226
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    You guys better keep it on an even keel.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  17. #227
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    Why are you guys always trying to take the wind out of my sails?
    Et tu BAUT? Quantum mutatus ab illo.

  18. #228
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    Q: What do you do with a subatomic pirate?

    A: Make him walk the Planck.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  19. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Q: What do you do with a subatomic pirate?

    A: Make him walk the Planck.
    Noclevername. oHHHHH!....Even worse, make him walk the Planck on a building's ledge, subatomic pirates are afraid of Widths, not Heights

  20. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
    That seems to me totally mixed up. I'd recommend Wikipedia as a source, except that it's rather confused. So I'm using this instead:


    CERN mug summarizes Standard Model, but is off by a factor of 2

    Here is what each term means:
    • Gauge-particle kinetic energy and self-interaction.
    • Elementary-fermion kinetic energy and gauge-particle interaction.
    • "Hermitian conjugate", a sort of mirror image. This one is redundant, and makes the aforementioned factor-of-2 error.
    • Elementary-fermion-Higgs-particle interactions.
    • "Hermitian conjugate" again, but a necessary one this time.
    • Higgs-particle kinetic energy and gauge-particle interaction.
    • Higgs-particle potential energy.

    All the "particles" here are quantized fields.

    D = gradient with gauge-particle interaction
    psi = elementary fermion
    phi = Higgs particle
    y's = interaction strengths
    V = potential

    The ultimate origin of Standard-Model-particle mass is the Higgs potential term. It makes the lowest-energy value of phi nonzero, and its continual presence then gives masses to the elementary fermions and some of the gauge particles.
    Ipetrich. Yep, the other side of the mug has the equations from the blackboard in the background that tries to explain the mystery that is.............a woman. :rollseyes-default: pete

  21. #231
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    [1207.7214] Observation of a new particle in the search for the Standard Model Higgs boson with the ATLAS detector at the LHC
    [1207.7235] Observation of a new boson at a mass of 125 GeV with the CMS experiment at the LHC

    ATLAS
    Mass = 126.0 +- 0.4 (stat) +- 0.4 (syst) GeV
    CMS
    Mass = 125.3 +- 0.4 (stat) +- 0.5 (syst) GeV

    Higgs decay | Stdevs | - | Obs/SM | -
    2-photon | 3.4, 3.2, 4.5 | 4.1 | 1.8 +- 0.5 | 1.6 +- 0.4
    Z(Z) -> 4l | 2.5, 2.6, 3.6 | 3.2 | 1.4 +- 0.6 | 0.7 +- 0.35
    W(W) -> lnln | 1.3, 3.3, 2.8 | 1.7 | 1.3 +- 0.5 | 0.7
    Total | 3.6, 4.9, 6.0 | 5.0 | 1.4 +- 0.3 | 0.87 +- 0.23
    Stdevs: for 7 TeV, 8 TeV, both (ATLAS), both (CMS)
    Obs/SM: ATLAS, CMS

    l = charged lepton
    n = neutrino
    Z(Z), W(W) - one Z or W virtual

    Tau-tau and bottom-bottom decays not observed with good statistical significance at either ATLAS or CMS.

    The decay rates are consistent with the Standard Model, though the margins of error are large, and though the photon-photon decay is a bit fast.


    Global number of stdevs (look-elsewhere effect)
    Detector | Range (GeV) | Stdevs
    ATLAS | 110 - 150 | 5.3
    ATLAS | 110 - 600 | 5.1
    CMS | 115 - 130 | 4.6
    CMS | 110 - 145 | 4.5
    Range = range of possible Higgs-particle masses

  22. #232
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    We had a public lecture at Carleton university on the Higgs Boson. The second speaker was Thomas Koffas and he seemed to be intimately involved with the ATLAS detector.

    At any rate, I had a chance to ask him when we might get confirmation of isotropic decay of the Higgs. He basically said there's currently little to no data on that, and it should be forthcoming by the end of this year. Which is to say probably in 2014 after the upgrade.

  23. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShinAce View Post
    The second speaker was Thomas Koffas and he seemed to be intimately involved with the ATLAS detector.
    I hope not too intimately, though. It often ends up badly when scientists become romantically involved with their instruments.
    As above, so below

  24. #234
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    Which gender do the French assign to a detector?
    “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.” ― Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

  25. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by trinitree88 View Post
    Ipetrich. Actually there are three masses. The third is the mass that reacts with the ubiquitous neutrino sea, via the three branches of the weak currents, the W+, the W-, and the Z0. The last one, the Z0, can be any particle/antiparticle pair, and at energies less than 1.022 Gev/c2, can only be either a massless photon/anti-photon or a neutrino/antineutrino pair.

    pete
    what is an anti-photon ??

    a bit of dark ??

  26. #236
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    There isn't a separate antiphoton -- the photon is its own antiparticle, just like the Z and the Standard-Model Higgs particle.

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